Room Query

[NKMA]

 

Hi All,

 

I recently setup my system (2 channel) in a 5 X 4 room (image above.) The room has glass windows (3/4th of the wall) on the right side and behind the listening position. I however have some curtains on both of them (not very thick).

 

The room has bamboo flooring with 1/2 inch thick carpet between the speakers and my listening positions.

 

'D' is my listening position and A, B & C are the corners.

 

My problem is, the bass is not very good on the spot where I sit . However, when I stand in the corners, the bass is good. Especially, Corner 'C' is the best. 

 

I have read a number of posts recommending bass traps and some treatment, would that solve the problem? Aren't bass traps to reduce boomy bass, which is not my problem?

 

I am also planning to visit SydneyHIFI to get their advise and get some acoustic work done. Is there anything that I need to be aware of or I can do that can make a difference?

 

Thanks for your suggestions..!

 

[cheekyboy]

Hello NKMA, it's normal for the bass to load up in the corners, but you are probably sitting in a position in that room where the bass is being sucked out. First consideration should be to place your listening chair where the bass is best and if that is in one of the corners, that would be where you probably should place your listening chair. This of course is probably not going to be ideal for many reasons, but you could try swapping your listening position and sit back against wall A/B. You might also find you have less negative interaction in the room if you place the speakers along wall B/C and listen across the room.............that gap over your right shoulder and behind your listening position in that configuration could be of assistance. Good luck with it and you should try different loudspeaker placements first, even if it is a small movement and you don't think it will make much difference.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited February 13, 2019 by cheekyboy

[Hifigeek]

Hi,

 

The glass window on the b / c side of your room is a pain (pardon the pun...), a heavy curtain could help and allow you to bring your speakers out more if needed. Also you should try and ensure that the distance behind your speakers is not the same as the distance of the side walls to your speakers. Finally bring your listening position in and see how you go. Good luck!

 

 

[NKMA]

2 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

Hello NKMA, it's normal for the bass to load up in the corners, but you are probably sitting in a position in that room where the bass is being sucked out. First consideration should be to place your listening chair where the bass is best and if that is in one of the corners, that would be where you probably should place your listening chair. This of course is probably not going to be ideal for many reasons, but you could try swapping your listening position and sit back against wall A/B. You might also find you have less negative interaction in the room if you place the speakers along wall B/C and listen across the room.............that gap over your right shoulder and behind your listening position in that configuration could be of assistance. Good luck with it and you should try different loudspeaker placements first, even if it is a small movement and you don't think it will make much difference. 

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Thanks Keith, will move my speakers around and see how it goes..

[NKMA]

15 minutes ago, Hifigeek said:

Hi,

 

The glass window on the b / c side of your room is a pain (pardon the pun...), a heavy curtain could help and allow you to bring your speakers out more if needed. Also you should try and ensure that the distance behind your speakers is not the same as the distance of the side walls to your speakers. Finally bring your listening position in and see how you go. Good luck!

 

 

Thanks Trevor. As it stands the distance behind and the sides are the same. As mentioned above, will move them around and try it.  Recently added a new Rel S3 sub, slight improvement, but still not sounding good.. So no other option but to move around..

[davewantsmoore]

The most practical solution is to move your speakers, your listening chain, and apply EQ to fix what problems remain.

 

"Bass traps" will need to be incredibly large to affect the problem you are describing.

 

 

PS - The glass wall is unlikely to be having any effect on this situation.   It is a red herring.

Edited February 13, 2019 by davewantsmoore

[Lochawe]

Dear NKMA can you describe your system briefly particularly what speakers you are using – for example are they large floor mounted or 2way stand mounted etc...

I am just wondering if your speakers are producing much output below 50Hz for example and how they may respond to firing across the narrow width of your room with your listening chair roughly where the number 2 is on your plan facing your speakers arranged across the A-B wall like cheekyboy has suggested...

Experiment – it is simply the only way to verify anything.

Have fun and good luck

 

[Hifigeek]

4 minutes ago, Aperalim said:

Dear NKMA can you describe your system briefly particularly what speakers you are using – for example are they large floor mounted or 2way stand mounted etc...

I am just wondering if your speakers are producing much output below 50Hz for example and how they may respond to firing across the narrow width of your room with your listening chair roughly where the number 2 is on your plan facing your speakers arranged across the A-B wall like cheekyboy has suggested...

Experiment – it is simply the only way to verify anything.

Have fun and good luck

 

Really not sure why you would want to consider this, there is only 4 mtrs to play with which would then push the listening position back towards the wall  (not ideal), plus glass between the speakers... Why not utilise the length of the room, and as mentioned cover the glass to the side with a heavy curtain (uncovered it may not effect the direct issue you are having but it will a big impact on many other areas, like sibilance, dynamics, soundstage, balance etc.) 

 

 

[Lochawe]

With all due respect Trevor I have had many systems in many different rooms over many years and given NKMA's system sounds unsatisfactory as it is configured now (which all things  considered most would assume would present optimal outcome) I only suggested an alternative is trialled . in case your advise does not yield the desired result.  As I suggested the only way to really understand how anything will impact sound is to experiment and hear it for oneself. Of course I agree with your advice that it is important to have unequal distances from speakers to rear and side boundaries and perhaps your suggestion to move closer to speakers will reveal fuller bass but perhaps it will not – depends on many things including the room's eigentones etc etc... Glass of course is lossy to low frequencies so I would expect curtains will do zero to bass response but yes glass (or a bare hard wall for that matter) at first lateral reflection point on one or either side of speakers is not good at all for the parameters you list.  Diffusion might have positive audible effects in this room behind speakers and in due course NKMA will be seeking acoustic advice soon from Sydney HiFi which hopefully will be able to build upon their own experience from trying a few different options first before any funds are committed...

 

NKMA what height is your ceiling in this room?

 

 

 

 

[Grant Slack]

Hello, I believe that you are going to have problems with sound quality with an 'open plan' room such as yours. Especially with your listening position only having one side wall. Asymmetry brings its own problems.

 

Am I correct to assume that the same system did not have deficient bass in a different room, and you have recently moved to this room and noticed the lack of bass? If so, in your previous room, were the speakers also away from the walls, and your listening position also? In other words, what else did you change besides the room itself?

 

It has been correctly noted that the bass is always higher in the corners (and also along the walls, but most in a corner). It is not a 'problem' that there is less bass where your seat is (D) than at A, B, and C. It is natural. In fact, if your speakers were perfectly flat from 20-20,000 Hz, you would experience excessive and very lumpy bass response as you walked into the room corners.

 

So, forget about what C sounds like, and focus on getting good sound at the listening position.

 

I also support other comments, that bass traps and similar will not solve your issue.

 

I would be curious to know what the sound is like if you sit at '5.4' (as written on your plan). I would expect less problems from the open side wall.

 

Also, if you move your seat right against the back wall, to get more bass from the natural boost that occurs at walls. You would want some decent absorption behind your head though, maybe between the curtain and the glass. It's not ideal, but it might help with the issue.

 

I am also thinking that your room is rather bright (reflective surfaces), including the floor. This tends to 'boost' the treble and midrange output, which can make the bass sound relatively weak by comparison. It also makes the room too 'echo-ey' for best sound. Some wall-to-wall carpeting with felt underlay will help, along with well-placed heavy drapes, especially on the central sections of the front and rear walls.

 

You mentioned "getting some acoustic work done". If you mean hifi-type acoustic panels, this tends to be very expensive and no better than heavy curtains. In fact it can be worse, mainly because the price, combined with a desire to be attractive in a decorative sense, tends to lead to not enough treatment being installed.

 

All the best with finding a solution.

 

Regards

Grant

[NKMA]

On ‎13‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 6:56 PM, davewantsmoore said:

The most practical solution is to move your speakers, your listening chain, and apply EQ to fix what problems remain.

 

"Bass traps" will need to be incredibly large to affect the problem you are describing.

 

 

PS - The glass wall is unlikely to be having any effect on this situation.   It is a red herring.

I moved my speakers a little forward  (a meter from the wall now) and the bass is the best at the back wall in standing position and coming forward it reduces and even sitting down. So I have moved my listening position to the back of the wall for now.. Slightly better bass.

Edited February 14, 2019 by NKMA

[NKMA]

20 hours ago, Aperalim said:

Dear NKMA can you describe your system briefly particularly what speakers you are using – for example are they large floor mounted or 2way stand mounted etc...

I am just wondering if your speakers are producing much output below 50Hz for example and how they may respond to firing across the narrow width of your room with your listening chair roughly where the number 2 is on your plan facing your speakers arranged across the A-B wall like cheekyboy has suggested...

Experiment – it is simply the only way to verify anything.

Have fun and good luck

 

Used to use Opera book shelf speakers with Yamaha SW515 sub in a smaller room where my listening position was a 1.5m from the speakers and the sound and bass was very good. So in the interest of upgrading, recently bought the Focal Scala V1 (here in SNA).  Its specifications says 28Hz to 48KHz. As I mentioned in my above post when I stand at the wall behind the listening position, I get good Bass.. strange..!

 

My room height is 2.5m. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by NKMA

[NKMA]

9 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

Hello, I believe that you are going to have problems with sound quality with an 'open plan' room such as yours. Especially with your listening position only having one side wall. Asymmetry brings its own problems.

 

Am I correct to assume that the same system did not have deficient bass in a different room, and you have recently moved to this room and noticed the lack of bass? If so, in your previous room, were the speakers also away from the walls, and your listening position also? In other words, what else did you change besides the room itself?

 

It has been correctly noted that the bass is always higher in the corners (and also along the walls, but most in a corner). It is not a 'problem' that there is less bass where your seat is (D) than at A, B, and C. It is natural. In fact, if your speakers were perfectly flat from 20-20,000 Hz, you would experience excessive and very lumpy bass response as you walked into the room corners.

 

So, forget about what C sounds like, and focus on getting good sound at the listening position.

 

I also support other comments, that bass traps and similar will not solve your issue.

 

I would be curious to know what the sound is like if you sit at '5.4' (as written on your plan). I would expect less problems from the open side wall.

 

Also, if you move your seat right against the back wall, to get more bass from the natural boost that occurs at walls. You would want some decent absorption behind your head though, maybe between the curtain and the glass. It's not ideal, but it might help with the issue.

 

I am also thinking that your room is rather bright (reflective surfaces), including the floor. This tends to 'boost' the treble and midrange output, which can make the bass sound relatively weak by comparison. It also makes the room too 'echo-ey' for best sound. Some wall-to-wall carpeting with felt underlay will help, along with well-placed heavy drapes, especially on the central sections of the front and rear walls.

 

You mentioned "getting some acoustic work done". If you mean hifi-type acoustic panels, this tends to be very expensive and no better than heavy curtains. In fact it can be worse, mainly because the price, combined with a desire to be attractive in a decorative sense, tends to lead to not enough treatment being installed.

 

All the best with finding a solution.

 

Regards

Grant

Thanks Grant. These speakers are new to this room as mentioned in my previous post. If it will improve my condition, I can look at closing the open space, was contemplating it before..

 

As you have noted, the Bass is strong outside the listening room say for instance, I was standing in my pantry and could hear just the bass..

 

Sitting at the 5.4 position makes the sound bright  (being very close to the speakers) with slightly better bass but not as good as standing at the back wall.. so moved my seat right back at the moment (as you have pointed out).

 

Just ran some bass heavy songs and the back most position sounds the best.. I could live with this.. if the recommendation is that acoustic treatment may not make the difference im looking for..

[Lochawe]

Sounds like you are making some progress NKMA.  As mentioned by someone earlier if your listening seat is close to your rear wall you may benefit from some wall mounted acoustic treatment to absorb and therefore minimise reflections. Good luck with it all.

[Anthony1]

Focal Scala speakers, nice. Lot more demanding that previous units.

 

You haven’t mentioned your amplification, specs say up to 500 Watts /ch for this large speaker (or quality Watts if lower).

 

With speakers that claim to go real low 27Hz (11” woofer) one shouldn’t really need a subwoofer. You need a big amp to drive this low frequency air across the room.

 

With speakers of such quality other areas might need addressing.

[NKMA]

14 minutes ago, Anthony1 said:

Focal Scala speakers, nice. Lot more demanding that previous units.
You haven’t mentioned your amplification, figure few hundred + w/ch would be a reasonable start for this large speaker (or quality Watts if lower).

Vitus RI-100 is the amplifier..

[Anthony1]

Quality amp, 300 W/ch should be fantastic all round.

[NKMA]

Focal Scala speakers, nice. Lot more demanding that previous units.
 
You haven’t mentioned your amplification, specs say up to 500 Watts /ch for this large speaker (or quality Watts if lower).
 
With speakers that claim to go real low 27Hz (11” woofer) one shouldn’t really need a subwoofer. You need a big amp to drive this low frequency air across the room.
 
With speakers of such quality other areas might need addressing.

When I first played and didn’t hear enough base, went and bought a new Sub.. it only improved slightly..

I was advised to get a small trolley and use it to keep moving the sub to find an optimal position. Planning to do that tomorrow. But for tonight focussing on moving the speakers around.

[NKMA]

1.3 meters space behind the speakers and listening seat extremely back to the wall and its much better. Moved the sub to the left corner and it has sounded the best till date in terms of bass. Mid and top have been very nice..! Thanks for all your suggestions. I might get the room closed as a first step and then look at other treatments.

[hopefullguy]

open room 20m2 joining 16m2 kitchen... sealed subwoofer. expecting too much maybe.

[NKMA]

I was recommended this sub being good for music.. what sub do you think might work? As I said In one of the above posts, the base is better in pantry which is behind the kitchen.. that too 1.5x1.7m hard to understand how the sound works

[hopefullguy]

sorry hope i didnt give you the wrong impression. i dont listen to music, HT room i have/closed. just that from general reading if you were using that same area as a HT situation then 2 ported subs would be the way to go.

 

as for music hmm sure there would be some music experts that could help. but i do wonder who suggested that particular sub? they should be able to help. keep moving it around until bass is better, as suggested, but at that price i would have expected a better result obtained easier.

[Hipper]

In my experience the basic principles of getting the sound right are:

 

1. Positioning of speakers and chair

2. Room treatment, particularly bass traps.

3. Complete the job with careful EQ/DSP.

 

The key to any sound improvement is getting the bass right but it is the most difficult. You will have bass issues even if you think you don't!

 

For positioning, can you consider other options, for instance having the speakers on the window wall, or even in some diagonal formation - some have had success in smallish squarish rooms with diagonal?

 

As you can use a sub, that may help improve the bass. I don't know much about sub placement but some use multiple subs - two to four - to correct bass. Swarms of subs I've heard it called!

 

Undoubtedly having an asymmetric room makes it more difficult to predict what is going on with bass. Because the bass wavelengths are so large they are similar to the size of rooms we use - 69Hz is about 5 metres. From the lower bass to around 250Hz they resonate in the room but each frequency sounds a different loudness in different parts of the room, so it's difficult to find the place in the room where you get the most even bass. Some of this bass energy builds up in the corners (wall-wall, wall-ceiling and wall-floor corners). That's why using bass traps in the corners to absorb this energy reduces the amount of bass in the room but also helps even it up for each frequency. With bass traps then you not only hear each frequency more evenly but you also get a tighter bass - thud instead of thuddddd. When you hear that you'll recognise good bass. The bonus is it also allows you to hear the higher frequencies better, so you especially get more midrange detail - e.g. rhythm guitar, piano. The negatives of bass traps are that they are big - mine are 40cm square and fill each wall-wall and ceiling-wall corner.

 

Once you've dealt with the bass you can look at the frequencies above 250Hz. These are ones that reflect off walls, windows, floors etc.. These can be controlled by absorbent panels and carpet. Stopping these reflections will give you sharp detailed sounds, less muddy, and improve imaging.

 

If 1 and 2 are not practical, some DSP products (like MiniDSP) can make a big improvement but it's not as good as room treatment.

 

Regarding the window, it will reflect as a wall does, but it may resonate at certain frequencies too. Then again it may not!

Edited February 16, 2019 by Hipper

[NKMA]

On ‎16‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 10:38 PM, Hipper said:

In my experience the basic principles of getting the sound right are:

 

1. Positioning of speakers and chair

2. Room treatment, particularly bass traps.

3. Complete the job with careful EQ/DSP.

 

The key to any sound improvement is getting the bass right but it is the most difficult. You will have bass issues even if you think you don't!

 

For positioning, can you consider other options, for instance having the speakers on the window wall, or even in some diagonal formation - some have had success in smallish squarish rooms with diagonal?

 

As you can use a sub, that may help improve the bass. I don't know much about sub placement but some use multiple subs - two to four - to correct bass. Swarms of subs I've heard it called!

 

Undoubtedly having an asymmetric room makes it more difficult to predict what is going on with bass. Because the bass wavelengths are so large they are similar to the size of rooms we use - 69Hz is about 5 metres. From the lower bass to around 250Hz they resonate in the room but each frequency sounds a different loudness in different parts of the room, so it's difficult to find the place in the room where you get the most even bass. Some of this bass energy builds up in the corners (wall-wall, wall-ceiling and wall-floor corners). That's why using bass traps in the corners to absorb this energy reduces the amount of bass in the room but also helps even it up for each frequency. With bass traps then you not only hear each frequency more evenly but you also get a tighter bass - thud instead of thuddddd. When you hear that you'll recognise good bass. The bonus is it also allows you to hear the higher frequencies better, so you especially get more midrange detail - e.g. rhythm guitar, piano. The negatives of bass traps are that they are big - mine are 40cm square and fill each wall-wall and ceiling-wall corner.

 

Once you've dealt with the bass you can look at the frequencies above 250Hz. These are ones that reflect off walls, windows, floors etc.. These can be controlled by absorbent panels and carpet. Stopping these reflections will give you sharp detailed sounds, less muddy, and improve imaging.

 

If 1 and 2 are not practical, some DSP products (like MiniDSP) can make a big improvement but it's not as good as room treatment.

 

Regarding the window, it will reflect as a wall does, but it may resonate at certain frequencies too. Then again it may not!

Thanks @Hipper. I am looking at closing the room. Someone is coming in on Friday to give me a quote. At least, I can reduce the problems I am trying to address by closing the room down. Once this is done, I will check if there is improvement. However I am keen on getting some professional help as my understanding is limited and keen to get the basics such as bass traps installed prior to looking at absorption panels.

[davewantsmoore]

42 minutes ago, NKMA said:

Thanks @Hipper. I am looking at closing the room. Someone is coming in on Friday to give me a quote. At least, I can reduce the problems I am trying to address by closing the room down. Once this is done, I will check if there is improvement. However I am keen on getting some professional help as my understanding is limited and keen to get the basics such as bass traps installed prior to looking at absorption panels.

I might have missed something, but how do you think closing the room will help the bass problem?

 

Placement is key

Bass traps can help, but not unless they are enormous and not unless the problem is well defined.

EQ is good .... but the danger is fixing problems with EQ that should be left alone.    Good placement (of speaker and listener) alleviates this issue (addresses the types of issues that you should avoid solving with EQ).