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What creates Imaging/sound stage


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I haven't noticed it with cables so much but any electronics and speakers can affect it.

 

In a 70k plus system I switched a Primare Pre60 for it's lower Pre32 preamp. Soundstage was the most noticeable difference. Nothing else was changed whatsoever

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It is the magic of stereophonic recording/playback. A well engineered stereophonic recording played back through speakers, placed in an isosceles formation to the listener, may create the illusion of a soundstage.

At the highest quality level, a listener can see what the players are wearing ?   Smagic.

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Ah now we're talking about things that blur the soundstage, like baffle edge diffraction, which is why narrow boxes or B&W's little round thing on top, are used - to provide clarity of sound/picture.

Panel speakers are weird, they lack absolute pinpoint imaging, but provide a holographic reality to the soundstage that conventionals don't.

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39 minutes ago, Nigel said:

Ah now we're talking about things that blur the soundstage, like baffle edge diffraction, which is why narrow boxes or B&W's little round thing on top, are used - to provide clarity of sound/picture.

Panel speakers are weird, they lack absolute pinpoint imaging, but provide a holographic reality to the soundstage that conventionals don't.

90% speaker and listening chair position.

Edited by awayward
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4 hours ago, ashmeow said:

In peoples opinions is it 100 percent the speaker that creates the soundstage? or 50/0 speaker amp? or?

What creates the sound stage is the difference in signal between the L and the R ear.     Anything that significantly harms that, will harm the stereo effect.

 

The thing that causes the biggest harm to this .... by an incredibly big margin, is the speaker and the room.

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Bizarre - not one agreement so far.  :)

 

In terms of the OP's Qu - what creates the soundstage - IMO, 3 things influence it:

  • speaker position relative to listening position
  • the speakers themselves
  • the power amp(s) driving the speakers.

Possibly the reason for not much agreement is ... what does each individual consider to be "the soundstage"?

  • just right - left?
  • height as well?
  • what about depth?
  • and instrument positioning within the soundstage space?

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, andyr said:

Possibly the reason for not much agreement is ... what does each individual consider to be "the soundstage"?

  • just right - left?
  • height as well?
  • what about depth?
  • and instrument positioning within the soundstage space?

And instrument "body", depth presence, air etc.

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6 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

And instrument "body", depth presence, air etc.

 

To me that's not "soundstage", Con - 'body' and 'air' are resolutions within the soundstage!  :)

 

IOW, "soundstage" is macro description (which, still, many systems fail at!).

 

Andy

 

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6 minutes ago, andyr said:

To me that's not "soundstage", Con - 'body' and 'air' are resolutions within the soundstage!  :)

 

IOW, "soundstage" is macro description (which, still, many systems fail at!).

Like you said, a lot of the problem is disagreement on definition...

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My (possibly incorrect) definition has always been Height, Width and Depth. Others may refer to it as the ability of the system to 'make the speakers disappear' which on the same lines.

 

Having heard my speakers create 2 vastly different soundstages when driven by varied amps in different rooms, i must agree that the room plays a big part

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On 13/02/2019 at 7:29 PM, Nigel said:

Ah now we're talking about things that blur the soundstage, like baffle edge diffraction, which is why narrow boxes or B&W's little round thing on top, are used - to provide clarity of sound/picture.

Panel speakers are weird, they lack absolute pinpoint imaging, but provide a holographic reality to the soundstage that conventionals don't.

unfortunately many panels also impose a larger than life perpsective to all the music that passes through them, regardless of what was on the original recording.

inaccurate but beguiling all the same.

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36 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

It's all created by the same single thing.

 

The difference in signal between the left and the right ear.

come on Dave, there's nothing magically intangible about your explanation. The punters want magic

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All of the cues are encoded into the audio channels.    All you can do is reproduce them as best as possible .... which involves delivering the least amount of distortion to each channel .... although "distortion" is a lot more complicated beyond the typical "THD" that people generally think of.     It involved no peaks and dips in the frequency response.... at all points in time  (ie. what is the delayed/reflected/later-arriving sound doing to your perception of what was encoded in the audio).

 

Things which distort the first-arriving (directly from the speakers), or later-arriving (eg. reflected from the room) frequency response .... or later arriving sound which arrives at the wrong time (ie. too soon) .... are what obscures the ability to hear what is recorded.

 

EDIT:  If you want magic, eat mushrooms.  ;) 

Edited by davewantsmoore
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23 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

EDIT:  If you want magic, eat mushrooms.  ;) 

 

I eat mushrooms pretty much every day...cooked in butter with garlic, maybe some spinach.  I suspect these may not be the same type of mushrooms you prescribe...haha!

 

Oh, and as far as I am aware Dave, you are correct regarding the different sound in each ear thingamy, but I am not certain that super low distortion is entirely required because I have heard valve pre's make some magic in certain systems when inserted in place of a SS preamp with better THD etc. specifications.  I know, it is entirely anecdotal and me perhaps thinking that the improvement was related to the item inserted rather than the item removed or perhaps its interaction with another component/s, but, well, it is what I have noticed.

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1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

It's all created by the same single thing.

 

The difference in signal between the left and the right ear.

Dave, what has that to do with my post? B)

 

I was just agreeing that depth and position of instruments and performers is part of imaging and sound stage and the bit that makes it appear realistic.....:thumb:

 

As for the how...........well who cares as long as we get the magic......:party

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The analysis of the correlation between apparent sound stage you perceive at the listening chair and the Left and Right channels of a stereo recording is typically not straightforward.

 

If for the recording there were just two microphones placed next to each other at at an angle (e.g. the so-called XY configuration) and your speakers are metres apart, headphones might give a better stereo image.

 

And then you can have two microphones placed metres apart for a recording (e.g. for a choir) in the "AB" configuration. Are your home speakers wider  apart than the microphones were, or closer together? 

 

It's remarkable that we can perceive a realistic sound stage in a case where our speakers are positioned very differently to how the microphones for the recording were placed!

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3 minutes ago, acg said:

Oh, and as far as I am aware Dave, you are correct regarding the different sound in each ear thingamy, but I am not certain that super low distortion is entirely required because I have heard

valve pre's make some magic in certain systems when inserted in place of a SS preamp with better THD etc. specifications.

Nooo, nooooo.

 

What I was trying to say, is that "low distortion" is much more than just "harmonic distortion" (like THD). ...... it is flatness of the frequency response.    Especially important is the delayed sound reflected from your room  (timing, and flatness)

 

If it arrives at the wrong time, or with the wrong spectral balance ..... then this tricks the brain into hearing "new information", which overrides the information (the "soundstage") encoded in the audio.

 

You are right... that low "harmonic" distortion (like THD) in itself, isn't particularly important.     (which is easy to test, as it's a "2 dimensional" problem)

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3 hours ago, Mendes said:

Dave, what has that to do with my post? B)

Sorry, I thought you were asking what causes each of those things (or +1'ed a post which did) ....  and I just noted they didn't need to be listed separately, as they are all the same thing.

 

Possibly the reason for not much agreement is ... what does each individual consider to be "the soundstage"?

  • just right - left?
  • height as well?
  • what about depth?
  • and instrument positioning within the soundstage space?

 

3 hours ago, Mendes said:

As for the how...........well who cares as long as we get the magic......:party

If you don't know "how" it works  .... then how will you get it?      Also, if you don't care "what creates imaging/soundstage" ..... then why post here?  :logik:

3 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Are your home speakers wider  apart than the microphones were, or closer together? 

Why does that matter?

Quote

It's remarkable that we can perceive a realistic sound stage in a case where our speakers are positioned very differently to how the microphones for the recording were placed!

Why?

Edited by davewantsmoore
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