Godot Posted December 24, 2018 Posted December 24, 2018 I wish to explore the option of a dedicated circuit for audio, based upon the advice of SNA members and my understanding that is where to start before exploring any other power conditioning etc. I've currently got 9 separates that need to plug into a power source, should they have a wall plug each or run off some power boards to get some surge protection? I don't have any knowledge or expertise in this area and I am after some simple dot points of what I need to consider and what I should request my electrician to actually do. I do have solar installed, no batteries, grid connected, 2 inverters as it was originally a smaller system that was expanded, but I don't think this has much impact on installing a dedicated power circuit for audio. I also live in a semi rural area, with the power transformer on a pole about 10 metres from my house. Voltage here varies between 239 to 248, as measured by my solar software apps. I dont know what the electricians here know about audio, so would appreciate some advice on what information I should give them for the best outcome. 3
agisthos Posted January 9, 2019 Posted January 9, 2019 Having a dedicated power line just for your audio system makes a difference. But also having an isolated ground. The ground is noisy, or noisy enough to somehow effect the performance of an audio system. So you need one wall point, with a dedicated line running back to the fuse box, on its own circuit breaker. And you then want this dedicated line to have its own ground point. Get a pure copper ground stake, 2m length, and hammer it all the way deep into the earth with a sledge hammer. Do that before hand, and tell your sparky to connect the dedicated line ground to that. Your sparky is going to think you are crazy, but tell him this is what you want. As for your inside setup, you don't need multiple wall points, but you will need a decent and well made power distribution strip with protection. I only use strips with US sockets for US cables, so my suggestions will not be appropriate. Maybe others can chime in here. 9 devices? thats a lot... what are you running? 2
Gav67 Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) Note under Australian Standards 3000 there are requirements for earthing and neutral connections (Multiple Earthed Neutral (MEN) system) that must be complied with. Eg to avoid step and touch potential particularly under fault conditions. While more than one earth stake can be installed they must be connected to produce an earth grid to maintain the same potential, See the following link of an example installation. A licensed electrician will be fully aware of the requirements and insist that the installation is installed to code. http://www.novaris.com.au/images/stories/Sales Kit/SK10/The MEN Wiring System.pdf Edited January 10, 2019 by Gav67 3
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 19 hours ago, agisthos said: Having a dedicated power line just for your audio system makes a difference. But also having an isolated ground. The ground is noisy, or noisy enough to somehow effect the performance of an audio system. So you need one wall point, with a dedicated line running back to the fuse box, on its own circuit breaker. And you then want this dedicated line to have its own ground point. Get a pure copper ground stake, 2m length, and hammer it all the way deep into the earth with a sledge hammer. Do that before hand, and tell your sparky to connect the dedicated line ground to that. Your sparky is going to think you are crazy, but tell him this is what you want. @Gav67 is correct - would suggest this is illegal on safety grounds.
Gav67 Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 @rmpfyf true, it would be illegal to separate the earth stakes. 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Gav67 said: @rmpfyf true, it would be illegal to separate the earth stakes. @Godot To be exact about it unless one made a second MEN (audio circuits in a dedicated sub board where applicable etc) what @agisthos suggests if taken literally would limit earth fault currents being able to flow back to the neutral via the MEN link... possibly he/she didn't mean it this way. It may also be possible to run the earth from a dedicated audio socket (with it's own RCD) direct to the existing earth stake. The usuals apply about good earthing then - get a good stake, do all possible to increase conductivity to ground (there's a compound that they can be sat in that improves things). You can use multiple earth stakes (spaced at least the depth of the first stake) joined together to drop impedance to ground proportionately. This is a relevant read http://www.electrical-installation.org/enwiki/Installation_and_measurements_of_earth_electrodes. Most places that do server rack power strips will be able to put a high-quality distribution board together. I'd not be in a rush to use parts to foreign standards. If you've a sparkie on-site there's no issue in simply having more GPOs/sockets installed, and some people then segregate their power amps/digital equipment/analogue equipment/etc on different RCDs with different earth paths, and keeping the relevant GPO groups spaced out for EMI. A dude that used to post here - 125dBMonster (and is a licensed sparkie) had some good suggestions as to what made for a good and not-expensive GPO for these applications, I'm sure the posts are still on the board somewhere... it started with 'don't use crap' and ended up with some older-design Clipsal parts from memory (could be wrong, anyone step in and correct me here). I like to keep power leads short and 'not all over the place' so my GPOs are installed relative to where my equipment is, and it's not all on the one rack. It's also at a distance from my network ports. Have the sparkie not skimp on the size of the ground wire. Most will stick to minimum requirements for load, you can go bigger. You can if you want have filtering installed in your board if you like or need for protection. Bear in mind these do alter power delivery. If you have a problem to start with they can be advantageous, if not it can (potentially) go the other way. It's possible to install some filtered and some non outlets. Check out the Thor DRM95 range (https://www.thortechnologies.com.au/product/drm95-30a/, there's a 20A version too). Disclaimer here - Whilst I do work with them I am not a sparkie, so please debate/correct/get your own advice from a pro/etc - anyone welcome to chip in/criticise/correct me here.
MLXXX Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 On 10/01/2019 at 1:49 AM, agisthos said: Having a dedicated power line just for your audio system makes a difference. I've often seen that view expressed on this forum. However I've also often seen the contrary view expressed. On 24/12/2018 at 10:31 AM, Godot said: I wish to explore the option of a dedicated circuit for audio, ... You seem pretty much set on the idea of going ahead. That is fine if it costs you just a few hundred dollars, and the expenditure is of no concern to you. However there is no guarantee it will actually make an audible difference.
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Just now, MLXXX said: I've often seen that view expressed on this forum. However I've also often seen the contrary view expressed. You seem pretty much set on the idea of going ahead. That is fine if it costs you just a few hundred dollars, and the expenditure is of no concern to you. However there is no guarantee it will actually make an audible difference. Well, there's two certainties here: Done right it certainly can't be bad And before you do anything else for power in your home, getting the basics sorted to these ends is a prerequisite unless wasting money Agree for some/many the advantages may be small, though in the right direction.
MLXXX Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Agree for some/many the advantages may be small, though in the right direction. I'd go so far as to say that for most (not just many), there will be no audible difference at all. As you would know, rmpfyf, the power supply circuitry for audiophile devices tends to isolate the rest of the circuitry sufficiently well from vagaries of the mains voltage/frequency/waveshape for the device to perform properly. Some equipment is even rated as 110-230V 50/60Hz. At my place we plug in the audio equipment and listen. We do not agonise over which power point to use. We do not monitor the mains voltage and wait for it to be optimum! So for example, we don't hesitate to use the electric oven (which causes a slight voltage drop at the house switchboard) when listening to music. Nor do we agonise over which power point to use for the TV set or the projector, in terms of picture quality. I suggest that interference injected into mains wiring from other devices connected to the same power circuit would only rarely be an issue. If it is an issue, there would be steps that could be taken to reduce the interference that device is injecting into the particular power circuit (and perhaps indirectly into other power circuits). But I'd agree that, "done right", having a dedicated power circuit can't be bad (unless of course the hip pocket is sensitive to the outlay of funds involved!). Your own suggestions as to methodology no doubt would be helpful in the direction of "doing it right", and I commend you on your helpful comments in this and other threads. I guess I feel the need to sound a note of caution if in a thread all of the existing posts seem to take for granted that money needs to be spent to provide special treatment of the mains power to audio equipment. Cheers Edited January 11, 2019 by MLXXX
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 Just now, MLXXX said: As you would know, rmpfyf, the power supply circuitry for audiophile devices tends to isolate the rest of the circuitry sufficiently well from vagaries of the mains voltage/frequency/waveshape for the device to perform properly. Some equipment is even rated as 110-230V 50/60Hz. Well... this is most of the crux of it. Some stuff is going to be voltage sensitive, some stuff is going to be frequency sensitive, some stuff is going to be impedance sensitive, some stuff is going to be noise sensitive, some stuff will have a bit to say about the resistance/capacitance/inductance of mains wiring right up to it and ...some stuff is designed to be relatively impervious to it all to a good degree, some stuff to a very strong degree, some have mains that are reasonable and some problematic. Some of my kit falls into the 'mains sensitive' side of design which isn't bad, it isn't good, it just is. I have some of the decent mains work done for audio because it (a) what I knew at the time and (b) the sparkie was already onsite doing a bunch of other work so this didn't cost so much added to it. Just now, MLXXX said: I suggest that interference injected into mains wiring from other devices connected to the same power circuit would only rarely be an issue. If it is an issue, there would be steps that could be taken to reduce the interference that device is injecting into the particular power circuit (and perhaps indirectly into other power circuits). Dedicated circuits and clean earth routes help... and are certainly cheaper than a PS20! Just now, MLXXX said: Your own suggestions as to methodology no doubt would be helpful in the direction of "doing it tight", and I commend you on your helpful comments in this and other threads. I guess I feel the need to sound a note of caution if in a thread all of the existing posts seem to take for granted that money needs to be spent to provide special treatment of the mains power to audio equipment. Cheers, and to you for keeping the hyperbole grounded. Electricity isn't witchcraft after all, and much of the 'audiophile' industry to this end gets a bit scary with respect to the snakeoil peddled in the space.
Gav67 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 @rmpfyf interesting topic. While you could make a second independent MEN system, I would be concerned under fault conditions of different potentials between the two earth systems. Ie I assume the suggested installation has the hifi system on one MEN and the rest of the house is on the other MEN and they are not connected. If you have your hand on the chasis of a HiFI component (earthed to one MEN system) and your feet In contact with the house (earthed to the second MEN system) and a fault occurs on one MEN , you may experience a large potential difference between the two MEN systems. BTW, I have a dedicated supply to my HiFi system and use the main MEN system. I also use a Torus AVR16 conditioner due to an intermediate disturbance that use to cause the transformers in my Krell power amps to hum on occasions. It commence about 4 years ago, day or night and for various durations. The amps were completely quiet before and would not hum at other people’s houses. I expected it was due to intermittent dc on the incomer but after trying many dc blockers nothing worked. Under advice from Len at Len Wallis I tried the Torus and the amps have been silent since. Plus I now have the bonus of voltage regulation. Also a disclaimer Note I am not an expert on this power supply topic and professional advice should always be sort to ensure a safe installation.
Guest rmpfyf Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Gav67 said: @rmpfyf interesting topic. While you could make a second independent MEN system, I would be concerned under fault conditions of different potentials between the two earth systems. Ie I assume the suggested installation has the hifi system on one MEN and the rest of the house is on the other MEN and they are not connected. If you have your hand on the chasis of a HiFI component (earthed to one MEN system) and your feet In contact with the house (earthed to the second MEN system) and a fault occurs on one MEN , you may experience a large potential difference between the two MEN systems. BTW, I have a dedicated supply to my HiFi system and use the main MEN system. I also use a Torus AVR16 conditioner due to an intermediate disturbance that use to cause the transformers in my Krell power amps to hum on occasions. It commence about 4 years ago, day or night and for various durations. The amps were completely quiet before and would not hum at other people’s houses. I expected it was due to intermittent dc on the incomer but after trying many dc blockers nothing worked. Under advice from Len at Len Wallis I tried the Torus and the amps have been silent since. Plus I now have the bonus of voltage regulation. Also a disclaimer Note I am not an expert on this power supply topic and professional advice should always be sort to ensure a safe installation. No you're right and I didn't state things clearly enough when writing 'audio circuits in a dedicated sub board where applicable' I would assume a separate MEN is usable only where it applies, e.g. if your stereo system is in a separate shed/dwelling/etc from your main home, and even then it would need to be some distance to be practical for the exact reason you suggest. I have a detached portion to my house and for the short distance involved figured a laid-up earth in the sub board was safer. Torus AVR16 is a nice unit - a very serious investment.
Godot Posted January 12, 2019 Author Posted January 12, 2019 Thanks all for the information and comments. As always a wealth of knowledge amongst this community. I am quite new to this so I reckon for now I'll do nothing, I'm enjoying the music anyway. For me this would be a longer term plan. I will look for the older threads mentioned too, thank you
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