Is rumble/woofer breathing just part of the medium of vinyl?

[kelossus]

With my current setup I am battling some pretty significant woofer breathing. Research seems to show dividing opinions with some blaming the issue on resonances from cart/arm mismatching and others who believe regardless of properly matched components it can still surface.

 

My setup consists of a VPI Prime with a Dynavector XX2 MKII cartridge. This is housed on a Solid tech Rack of Silence underneath their discs of silence. My speakers are ported but oddly the ports are underneath speakers (speakers stand off the ground on outriggers). The floor is a concrete slab.

 

In the past my phono stage had a subsonic filter so I did not see these issues if they were present at the time. Subsonic filters also divide opinions.

 

Can anyone confirm that woofer breathing to some extent is just part of vinyl playback? I am considering selling my phono stage in hopes of picking up one with bass filtering. Ideally fixing whatever issue I may have that is causing the breathing would be ideal.

 

I do not hear any signs of damage potentially occurring but seeing the woofers move what looks to be around 10mm is unnerving. The movement is not a quick transient either it is rather slow and controlled, a very low frequency.

[Guest]

With my current setup I am battling some pretty significant woofer breathing. Research seems to show dividing opinions with some blaming the issue on resonances from cart/arm mismatching and others who believe regardless of properly matched components it can still surface.
 
My setup consists of a VPI Prime with a Dynavector XX2 MKII cartridge. This is housed on a Solid tech Rack of Silence underneath their discs of silence. My speakers are ported but oddly the ports are underneath speakers (speakers stand off the ground on outriggers). The floor is a concrete slab.
 
In the past my phono stage had a subsonic filter so I did not see these issues if they were present at the time. Subsonic filters also divide opinions.
 
Can anyone confirm that woofer breathing to some extent is just part of vinyl playback? I am considering selling my phono stage in hopes of picking up one with bass filtering. Ideally fixing whatever issue I may have that is causing the breathing would be ideal.
 
I do not hear any signs of damage potentially occurring but seeing the woofers move what looks to be around 10mm is unnerving. The movement is not a quick transient either it is rather slow and controlled, a very low frequency.

Look out for a KAB rumble filter. Cheap, unobtrusive, effective and no noticeable degradation of the sound. That woofer pumping could be the tt bearing or warped vinyl if it's slow and even.

[Wimbo]

Yes, I always believe it to be warped vinyl. Couple of problems there. One is you raise the noise floor and lose dynamics because the amplifier is loosing power amplifying the warps. Another is, pitch or speed is constantly changing. Some people can here this quite easily and blame it on belt drive turntables. Others (like me) don't notice it as much, if at all.

Remember that vinyl playback is mechanical energy being changed to electrical energy and then back to mechanical. For me, cartridge/tonearm mismatch can create a lack of detail or added distortion. I have seen unwanted vertical movement of the combo because of it. Not sure if this relates to rumble though.

[Citroen]

Frankly it could be caused by anything.

 

Most likely an arm/cart mismatch, but could also be what Anthony says.

 

Or a room interaction exacerbating that resonant frequency. 

Well that's what I think my problem was anyway. Moved the speakers a few inches, shifted some furniture, moved a rug and pumping sound gone.

 

 

[Chigurh]

I think you can spend months trying to get to the bottom of the problem. Just get a phono stage with a subsonic filter and be done with it and spend more time listening.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

With my current setup I am battling some pretty significant woofer breathing. Research seems to show dividing opinions with some blaming the issue on resonances from cart/arm mismatching and others who believe regardless of properly matched components it can still surface.

 

Cart/arm mismatching can certainly cause it ... but with even "properly matched components", yes, it can still occur - as  @Grizzly posted, as a result of warped records or bearing rumble.

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

My setup consists of a VPI Prime with a Dynavector XX2 MKII cartridge.

 

Have you checked that combo with the Vinyl Engine databases and arm/cart resonance calculator?

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

This is housed on a Solid tech Rack of Silence underneath their discs of silence.

 

That should provide good mechanical isolation.    But are you getting air-borne vibrations attacking the VPI?

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

My speakers are ported but oddly the ports are underneath speakers (speakers stand off the ground on outriggers).

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of ported speakers but I have no idea whether ports exacerbate woofer pumping ... or not.

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

In the past my phono stage had a subsonic filter so I did not see these issues if they were present at the time. Subsonic filters also divide opinions.

 

Subsonic filters are to be avoided, IMO - as their effect continues up well into the range where you want to hear sound ... certainly, if you are a devotee of Bach organ musik, as I am.    If you just like to listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar ... then maybe. 

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

Can anyone confirm that woofer breathing to some extent is just part of vinyl playback?

 

Absolutely, it is not "just part of vinyl playback"!

 

I play vinyl and I have:

• a phono stage without any sub-sonic filtering (I know bcoz I designed the circuit and built it, myself  ), and
• a pair of 15" subs which deliver hearable output to at least 16Hz.

I do not get the sub drivers pumping when I play vinyl.

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

I am considering selling my phono stage in hopes of picking up one with bass filtering. Ideally fixing whatever issue I may have that is causing the breathing would be ideal.  I do not hear any signs of damage potentially occurring but seeing the woofers move what looks to be around 10mm is unnerving.

 

As you say, fixing it is the aim - as this woofer pumping is not ideal (and, with a 10mm movement, is sucking up a lot of amplifier power).

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

The movement is not a quick transient either it is rather slow and controlled, a very low frequency.

 

Can you measure the time between 'driver outs' - which will give us the frequency.  That could identify whether it is due to:

• bearing rumble
• warped or offset records, or
• arm/cart incompatibility.

 

Andy

 

[aussievintage]

30 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Another is, pitch or speed is constantly changing.

 

Vertical warping doesn't effect pitch/speed, as the rotational 'distance' remains constant. The modulations end up passing under the stylus at the same rate.  However eccentricity, off centre hole etc, causes pitch changes.

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

I do not hear any signs of damage potentially occurring but seeing the woofers move what looks to be around 10mm is unnerving. The movement is not a quick transient either it is rather slow and controlled, a very low frequency.

 

Any low frequency input can do this.   Sometimes, you can relate to what is happening on the record to the stylus.  An extreme example might be a warp on the record causes the stylus to move visibly and even oscillate slightly if the resonance of the cartridge suspension with the tonearm is not quite ideal.  I have observed this by positioning myself so the speaker cone and the stylus were in line of sight.  You can clearly see what is causing it.

 

Also, building vibrations, and footfalls, can cause it.

 

13 minutes ago, andyr said:

Personally, I'm not a fan of ported speakers but I have no idea whether ports exacerbate woofer pumping ... or not.

Shouldn't.   The port should be tuned to the speaker resonance.

 

14 minutes ago, andyr said:

Subsonic filters are to be avoided, IMO - as their effect continues up well into the range where you want to hear sound ... certainly, if you are a devotee of Bach organ musik, as I am.    If you just like to listen to female vocals and acoustic guitar ... then maybe. 

 

Yeah, it's compromise.

 

14 minutes ago, andyr said:

Absolutely, it is not "just part of vinyl playback"!

I would not be so absolute.  Unless your vinyl is perfectly flat and NOTHING is introducing a subsonic signal to the cartridge, most modern systems will deliver a small but significant sub-bass signal to the woofer, and some pumping may result.

[andyr]

22 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I would not be so absolute.  Unless your vinyl is perfectly flat and NOTHING is introducing a subsonic signal to the cartridge, most modern systems will deliver a small but significant sub-bass signal to the woofer, and some pumping may result.

 

I am 'absolute', av ... bcoz I don't experience any (sub)woofer pumping.  And not all my LPs are:

a. perfectly flat, and

b. have the spindle hole dead-centre.

 

Given my subs deliver hearable output to at least 16Hz - they would show any pumping if there was anything producing this.

 

But then again:

• my Linn bearing is quiet
• my cart/arm combos are in the 'compatible' (green) area, in the VE resonance calculator.

 

Andy

Edited December 16, 2018 by andyr

[aussievintage]

45 minutes ago, andyr said:

Given my subs deliver hearable output to at least 16Hz - they would show any pumping if there was anything producing this.

Actually I suspect woofer pumping is much lower frequency than this.   What type of woofers are yours?  Depending on compliance, they might have a sharp cutoff below the 16Hz you specify.    None of this is audible unless it effects amplificationof higher freqs of course.

[andyr]

22 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Actually I suspect woofer pumping is much lower frequency than this.

 

I suspect it may well be, av.

 

And thinking of an off-centre spindle hole - please tell me if my maths is off:

• this will cause the cart to move in (towards the centre) and out again, each revolution
• LP is rotating 33 1/3rd rpm
• which is - near enough - 1 rotation every 2 seconds
• which is 0.5Hz.

 

22 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

What type of woofers are yours?  Depending on compliance, they might have a sharp cutoff below the 16Hz you specify.

 

Good point - the drivers are Dayton 15" 'Ultimax'.  They have a 20mm xmax - I've no idea whether this means they have a sharp cutoff ... or not.

 

22 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

    None of this is audible unless it effects amplification of higher freqs of course.

 

Shirley, it will suck quite a lot of amplifier power to move the driver at ultra low frequencies?

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

Vertical warping doesn't effect pitch/speed, as the rotational 'distance' remains constant.

Theres a greater distance for the stylus to travel going over a hill then a direct path. To me, thats speed variation.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Wimbo

[eltech]

5 hours ago, kelossus said:

confirm that woofer breathing to some extent is just part of vinyl playback?

Yes. 100% it is if you have big woofers 10" or above and speakers that play below 50Hz.

 

It's not as noticeable with 6" woofers.

 

Some record cutting lathes are quieter than others. New records have less subsonic noise.

 

Secondhand records from the 60's and 70's have more subsonic noise.

Edited December 16, 2018 by eltech

[eltech]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

Shirley, it will suck quite a lot of amplifier power to move the driver at ultra low frequencies?

Watts are the same at any frequency. 

[andyr]

10 minutes ago, eltech said:

Watts are the same at any frequency. 

 

Great answer, eltech - that completely misses the point! 

 

Andy

 

[eltech]

8 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Great answer, eltech - that completely misses the point! 

 

Andy

 

My apologies. What is the point?

Are you saying that unnecessary LF noise is wasting watts?

 

But is it important?

If the LF noise is say 10dB below average music power, then sure, it's wasting watts, but not significantly. If your amp is outputting 1watt to achieve 90dB at 1 meter, how much power is wasted? This is a home application, not a concert PA. 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by eltech

[andyr]

6 minutes ago, eltech said:

My apologies. What is the point?

Are you saying that unnecessary LF noise is wasting watts?

 

I'm saying that when you compare how an amp is performing when it is driving a pair of full-range speakers vs. when you have added a pair of subs to the same speakers - and rolled off the mains at 60, 80 or 100Hz, to match the "roll-on" of the subs (say, with 24dB L-R slopes) - then the amp driving the mains is much less stressed in the latter situation.

 

IOW, when an amp is delivering unnecessary LF noise - valuable amplifier power is being used up which could better be used for the normal frequency spectrum.

 

Andy

 

[kelossus]

Just to answer a few questions,

 

I have not checked the arm/cart resonance frequency. Frankly its hard to get a solid figure for compliance on the Dynavector. Sometimes its listed in mm/n and sometimes in dyne. They never specify what frequency the measurements are at so the figure is hard to pin point. On the DV website its advertised as 10mm/n and on retailers websites I have seen it advertised as 10x10^6 dyne.

 

The dynavector is recommended commonly on forums, foolishly so I interpreted this as being a good match. The VPI Prime arm is only around 10grams so rather light weight. I have a lyra delos here which is advertised as 12x10 dyne @100hz. I could try it at some point.

 

I have two pairs of speakers I rotate through. Both are ported. One pair having 3x8 inch woofers and the other having a 14inch woofer. Oddly enough the breathing is more noticeable on the 3x8 inch woofers.

 

The breathing is worse on warped records but also apparent on perfectly flat records like my MFSL Brothers in Arms. It can get pretty severe, especially as the volume is increased. As mentioned I can't audibly hear any issue but I would imagine freeing the woofers up from that sort of movement would improve the sound

 

Leaning towards a new phono but I don't know of any in my price range (2k-ish) that have a good subsonic filter. Current phono is a Manley Chinook.

Edited December 16, 2018 by kelossus

[eltech]

6 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

I'm saying that when you compare how an amp is performing when it is driving a pair of full-range speakers vs. when you have added a pair of subs to the same speakers - and rolled off the mains at 60, 80 or 100Hz, to match the "roll-on" of the subs (say, with 24dB L-R slopes) - then the amp driving the mains is much less stressed in the latter situation.

 

IOW, when an amp is delivering unnecessary LF noise - valuable amplifier power is being used up which could better be used for the normal frequency spectrum.

 

Andy

 

I agree active crossovers are better for many reasons, but don't agree that an amp is "stressed" at one or even ten watts.(depending on maximum power of said amp)  So I'll politely disagree with you about this.

 

If you're asserting that amps don't "like" outputting various frequencies at one time, then you'd be saying that all audio amps are in a continuous state of "stress", and I don't agree.

Edited December 16, 2018 by eltech

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, Wimbo said:

Theres a greater distance for the stylus to travel going over a hill then a direct path. To me, thats speed variation.

 A greater distance along the record surface, yes, but the rotational speed of the record is constant so the surface speed ,( to get up and down the hill) is correspondingly greater.  In the end, it equals out.

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, andyr said:

Shirley, it will suck quite a lot of amplifier power to move the driver at ultra low frequencies?

 

Yes, but I never play my amp anyway near full power, so it has oodles to spare - headroom if you like.

[eltech]

25 minutes ago, kelossus said:

The VPI Prime arm is only around 10grams so rather light weight

Yes it is light weight to be using with a medium compliance cartridge. You need a heavier tonearm (or a higher compliance cartridge)

Edited December 16, 2018 by eltech

[eltech]

5 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Yes, but I never play my amp anyway near full power, so it has oodles to spare - headroom if you like.

Correct!

[eltech]

26 minutes ago, kelossus said:

Oddly enough the breathing is more noticeable on the 3x8 inch woofers.

This could be for reasons such as the sensitivity of the drivers, or the port tuning (gain at low frequencies)

[aussievintage]

37 minutes ago, kelossus said:

I have two pairs of speakers I rotate through. Both are ported. One pair having 3x8 inch woofers and the other having a 14inch woofer. Oddly enough the breathing is more noticeable on the 3x8 inch woofers.

 

Fairly understandable.  For  a smaller diameter speaker to move the same amount of air as a bigger one, it has to move further, and so obtain the same bass response.  So the suspension on smaller drivers is softer and has longer travel, and so the movement is more visible.