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Acoustic Basics of my Room


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1 hour ago, zydeco said:

Big picture looks better?

 

Note, it'd be good to know the distortion

Very much.   You should find it sounds very different too.

 

One you have your final target EQed in (which I assume will have a bit more boost in the bass) ....  you want to check how much the driver is moving, it can move 1/2 an inch in each direction and remain "linear" .... and its movement limit is 1 inch in each direction.

 

10Hz is quite low.    I would expect that if you set it to normal music listening type levels, and you play a 10Hz tone, that the driver will move too much (be carful testing this - perhaps start a lower than normal listening volume).

 

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

What, if anything, does this mean

Nothing profound except as you move around the room, the peaks and dips in the response change.... and so the EQ you used to make the listening position flat, is no longer right for other positions.

 

 

 

 

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Sorry for going straight in here, but where do you guys get the graphs, smoothing. etc. in REW (found the smoothing).

 

Below is readings I took when sending measurements to HAF for his filters (was told to do 9 readings each for both L & R speakers hence why so many). These were with my ML3's, but want to do new one's for my ML5's. I didn't take any readings with my sub as wasn't sure how to send the signal only to it (took me ages just working out how to do the signal to the mains).

 

Big dip in the 60Hz to 75Hz range, and another smaller one at 25Hz. What this all means and how I fix it is double dutch to me, sorry :ermm:

 

If me jumping into someone else's thread is a big NO NO and I've done the wrong thing, sorry and happy to delete this post :blush:

 

REW SPL Readings: 9 Left & 9 Right, plus Average

REW SPL Readings 9 Left and 9 Right, plus Average.jpg

 

REW Waterfall Readings: 9 Left & 9 Right, plus Average

REW Waterfall from All Readings.jpg

 

REW SPL Readings: Average with 1/12 smoothing

REW Waterfall from Average Readings.jpg

 

REW Waterfall Readings: Average with 1/12 smoothing

REW Waterfall from Average Readings.jpg

 

Edited by Celts88
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56 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

short recipe

This is much more difficult than it sounds - as it totally depend on what the objective is.  There are some things that are important for the quality of the data, and if you get them wrong then you need to take the measurement(s) again.

 

Where to place the microphone is important.

Measurig from only one location is useful for some things, but very misleading and not representative for others.    Not knowing where the microphone was placed, can make the data difficult to interpret.

 

The level is important.

Measure loud enough to get an acceptable SNR reading.  Measure quiet enough to avoid distortion (unless that's what you're investigating).  Typically it will be quite loud.

 

 

 

The rest is how you process or display that data.... and how to do that depends totally on what the objective is (ie. what do you want to know about?)

 

I hope that's not too unhelpful.    It's important not to look at "data which is invalid for your purpose" .....  but being able to determine that takes knowledge/experience.    For someone else to interpret the data well, they will need to determine this, so be prepared to answer a lot of questions.

 

 

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@davewantsmoore

 

Would it be best if I move this to a new thread and then I won't 'contaminate' zydeco's thread?

 

Happy to provide additional info, and even more happy for questions to follow as that will only enhance my learning curve. My bar is waaaaaaaaay lower than everyone here so please bear with me :P

 

Where to place the microphone is important.

UMIK-1 microphone used, and was placed in multiple locations with myself sitting in 'my sweet spot' (on settee corresponding with middle of speakers) . Attached diagram I tried to follow of where the measurements were taken (I've a microphone stand so would be kind of accurate).

 

The level is important.

Just used REW standard level of 75db SPL utilising Pink PN as generated by REW

 

REW Measurement Locations

REW Measurement Points.jpg

 

REW Measurement - Left Speaker

REW - Left Speaker..jpg

 

REW Measurement - Right Speaker

REW - Right Speaker..jpg

 

Edited by Celts88
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45 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

Happy to provide additional info

I don't think you need to.

 

.... all the "complex bits" is how to display, process, and interpret the data.... and whoever you sent it to (devialet?!) will do that.

 

?:)

Edited by davewantsmoore
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@davewantsmoore

 

Thanks for the comments, most appreciated ?

 

So the easy bit has been done (assuming I've taken the measurements correctly), it's just the interpretation and rectification (how longs a piece of string) that I need to do next.

 

Measurements were sent to Home Audio Fidelity where he did his magic and produced his HAF Filters.

 

I was hoping to try and 'smooth' out the big dip in the 60Hz to 75Hz range, and the other smaller one at 25Hz. I realise that's probably asking someone to explain 'what's the meaning of life, the universe, and everything else in-between', but I was hoping to get a wee bit of a pointer, pretty please :flowers:

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31 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

assuming I've taken the measurements correctly

It would be a difficult (or impossible) job for them to deal with data that was 'not representative' .... and if they did do something with it, it would have a bad result  (which they don't want).

 

... so I expect their instructions were good.   (I don't see anything in the charts which says issue).

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34 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

Measurements were sent to Home Audio Fidelity where he did his magic and produced his HAF Filters.

Ahh, I see.

 

The filters didn't help? .... or are these charts with the filters activated? ... or?

Do you mean you used pink noise?... or did you do a sweep (that went 'whoooooop')?

 

35 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

I was hoping to try and 'smooth' out the big dip in the 60Hz to 75Hz range, and the other smaller one at 25Hz. I realise that's probably asking someone to explain 'what's the meaning of life, the universe, and everything else in-between', but I was hoping to get a wee bit of a pointer, pretty please :flowers:

 

There's a significant dip centered around 70Hz.    You can't really EQ this away....  but adding a 3rd source (subwoofer) might help... and with a sub you have the freedom to move the subwoofer to a position where it might stop the standing wave cancellation.

 

RE: 25hz.... this looks to be less of a dip... and more of a strong peak at 20hz and 25hz (making the saddle in between look like a dip).    You can see these strong peaks on the waterfall, drawn out in time.   You could notch each of these peaks away with some EQ.

 

 

My quick n dirty advice  (Hi zydeco ?)

 

Repeat some measurements with L+sub, and R+sub ... see what the sub is doing to the 70Hz hole.   Move the subwoofer and EQ the subwoofer until it helps. Room treatment will need to be pretty big (much more than the typical corner wedges or panels you see people using) to do much here.

 

Move the L and R speakers around focussing on the region between 150 and 350Hz .... you won't get it perfect, but you might be able to move the peaks/dips around so it's overall smoother.

 

If the peaks at 20 and 35Hz are still there after you've integrated the subwoofer .... then consider hitting them down with EQ.   Practical room treatment (even impractical) will have little impact.

 

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@davewantsmoore

 

Mate that's fantastic info, just what I was looking for :yes:

 

The charts in my previous posts were the measurements I took of my ML3's via REW before getting the filters. Sorry, I had to remember what I did as it was 9 months, so yes Pink Noise was used for setting the sound level via the SPL meter, then when doing the measurements I used the sweep function (guide said top-left button called “Measure” in REW), and finally the guide said to save all measurements to a “.mdat” file.

 

Below are graphs supplied by HAF to represent the speaker measurements without then with the filters in use. He also supplied a Spectrogram which is total quadruple Dutch to me :blink:

 

Regarding your quick 'n dirty advice that's great info ?. I realise I have the filters and they help to mostly get rid of the big hole at 70Hz, but I really wanted to try and alleviate some of that hole prior to implementing new filters. Now the only thing I'm not sure of is how to do the sweep measurements for L+sub, and R+sub, but I'll just have to figure out how to do that in REW.

 

I'm a bit limited where I can move the sub (my hi-fi is in the front lounge so very limited with choices), but it gives me a good start to try and move it to a spot "where it might stop the standing wave cancellation."

 

When you mentioned that "Room treatment will need to be pretty big (much more than the typical corner wedges or panels you see people using) to do much here", that's fantastic info and actually put's my mind to rest. Now that may seem a crazy thing to say, but I'm limited with what changes I can make to my room, so now knowing that my only options are to move the Speakers & Sub around to try and alleviate some of the large hole at 70Hz, and peaks at 20Hz & 25Hz.

 

I've attached a couple of photos of my room set-up, which shows I'm limited with choices, and possibly why my right speaker gives the worst measurements (I think it does?). At best I may down the track have the window on the back right filled in to make one solid back wall, and then I can centre my set-up (how much that would help???). In the meantime I could shift the Sub around the right hand corner so have a small bit of latitude here (how much this could help???). I can also try toeing the main speakers in or out to see if that helps anything - should they point at me or at a small space behind as I've seen some mention.

 

Once I've had a go at moving the Speakers & Sub around to try and smooth out some of the errors I can then take new level measurements of my ML5's before getting new HAF Filters.

 

Dave, just need to say it again, thanks for all the info it's exactly what I was looking for :D

 

Levels Without HAF Filters

Levels without correction.png

 

Levels With HAF Filters

Levels with correction.png

 

Spectrogram with & without Correction

Spectro.png

 

My Room Layout (1)

My Front Lounge (1).JPG

 

My Room Layout (2)

Room Layout copy.JPG

Edited by Celts88
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15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

@davewantsmoore

 

Mate that's fantastic info, just what I was looking for :yes:

 

The charts in my previous posts were the measurements I took of my ML3's via REW before getting the filters. Sorry, I had to remember what I did as it was 9 months, so yes Pink Noise was used for setting the sound level via the SPL meter, then when doing the measurements I used the sweep function (guide said top-left button called “Measure” in REW), and finally the guide said to save all measurements to a “.mdat” file.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

He also supplied a Spectrogram which is total quadruple Dutch to me :blink:

It's no wonder.   This is a very(!) bad chart... and it makes me cringe.    Why?

 

1.  You obviously weren't provided with any explanation of what it means.   This is normally bad, and represents a "communication 101" failure....  but in this case, (s)he should know that most people won't understand this chart, and so it's even more important.

 

2.  It has no units on the axis, or key to explain the colours.

 

Y(up) axis is frequency.   10^0 = 1Hz  10^1=10Hz  10^2=100Hz 10^3=1000Hz... etc

X(right) axis is time in milliseconds

The colours represent the level....  Red(top)-Yellow-Green-Blue(zero).

 

What the chart demonstrates, is how the energy from the speaker is spread out in time.    You can see when filling in dips in the levels with EQ, that the energy spreads out in time (sometimes called "ringing").

 

You can see between 10 and 100, where the 'hole' has been filled in ..... the energy has spread in time.    This is why I suggested moving the location of things to fix the hole - rather the putting more energy in there.

 

 

All that being said.... Your comment about "not many options", is understandable.   In the real world, you can't rearrange your room, or put your subwoofer in the perfect location ... when the room is the main family/TV room....   and so, some EQ - even if it does look bad on a spectrogram, can be the best option.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

I realise I have the filters and they help to mostly get rid of the big hole at 70Hz

Did you find the filters to be an improvement?

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

 

, but I really wanted to try and alleviate some of that hole prior to implementing new filters. Now the only thing I'm not sure of is how to do the sweep measurements for L+sub, and R+sub, but I'll just have to figure out how to do that in REW.

It might be as simple as just turning on your subwoofer ... and taking a measurement with REW connected to the L (or R) input.

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

When you mentioned that "Room treatment will need to be pretty big (much more than the typical corner wedges or panels you see people using) to do much here", that's fantastic info and actually put's my mind to rest. Now that may seem a crazy thing to say, but I'm limited with what changes I can make to my room

I totally understand.   All too often we see people putting in "bass traps" which are nothing of the sort (only) effective at much higher frequencies.    Your issues (like most people) are at LF - and the only way is positions of speaker and listener, and EQ.

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

, so now knowing that my only options are to move the Speakers & Sub around to try and alleviate some of the large hole at 70Hz, and peaks at 20Hz & 25Hz.

If you have the time and patience, try moving it around more than you would be comfortable living with.   This will give you a bit of perspective of what is possible.    You might find large moves don't help lots (and make you happy) ... or that going a bit further than you thought you'd be comfortable with makes a big difference (and gives you the confidence to "try and convince the wife").... knowledge is power.

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

At best I may down the track have the window on the back right filled in to make one solid back wall, and then I can centre my set-up (how much that would help???).

Why not just centre your setup now?    You could arrange it to the R edge to the TV was in line with the window (so the TV wasn't blocking the window any).

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

In the meantime I could shift the Sub around the right hand corner so have a small bit of latitude here (how much this could help???)

If you are keen, I would suggest moving the subwoofer to all sorts of locations around the room - even ones where it won't be able to stay.    Measurements at each location will give you a good idea of how much moving it makes a difference....  and will give you enough info to make a decision (eg. to put it somewhere that might not be your first choice, but it worth while putting up with).

 

15 hours ago, Celts88 said:

should they point at me or at a small space behind as I've seen some mention.

Ask MikeL.   It depends on the speaker, as much as the room geometry.   I'd tend to point them to they 'crossed' slightly in front of you, but the speaker designer will know best.

 

16 hours ago, Celts88 said:

thanks

Welcome.... but now perhaps we ARE polluting Zs thread too much.   Maybe report your last long post, so a mod can turn it into your own thread (?!?)

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On 26/07/2018 at 2:21 PM, davewantsmoore said:

Ask MikeL.   It depends on the speaker, as much as the room geometry.   I'd tend to point them to they 'crossed' slightly in front of you, but the speaker designer will know best.

lol, I thought for a second you were referring to me?? then I saw what speakers the OP has :)

Mike will know best what works for his speakers.

 

Toeing in more or less won't change those dips <100Hz though. At those frequencies the wavelengths are so long, they're not directional.

Positioning of the mains and sub and possibly adding another sub would be the best approach.

 

cheers

Mike

 

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@almikel / @davewantsmoore

 

Yep toeing in won't help any of the low frequencies, it was just my clumsy add-on to the paragraph and was more in relation to general question re toe-in or out.

 

I'll send Mike L (not almikel :P)  a text tomorrow asking what he feels is best for the ML5's as a general configuration (didn't want to pester him over the weekend).

 

My new Antipodes CX arrived yesterday so was setting that up today, and rescanning all the music files, etc. for Roon.

 

Maybe next week I'll give a go at doing some new measurements, but all I've tried the last few days is slowly pushing the sub closer into the back right corner and see (hear) if much difference. I'm a bit limited where I can place the sub so hoping somewhere in the corner will help (not fix, just help).

 

Cheers

John

Edited by Celts88
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38 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

I'll send Mike L (not almikel :P)  a text tomorrow asking what he feels is best for the ML5's as a general configuration (didn't want to pester him over the weekend)

He'll probably provide some generic advice.... and then suggest you try different angles yourself.    That's what I suggest too, just give it a go.    I reckon about 15 or 20 deg in (so crossing just in front of you) will probably be right, but it does depend a lot on room dimensions vs listening distance, etc.

 

38 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

Maybe next week I'll give a go at doing some new measurements, but all I've tried the last few days is slowly pushing the sub closer into the back right corner and see (hear) if much difference.

I don't advise that you listen for a difference in the first instance.   Take measurements in different positions (keep the mic in the same place) and see what actually happens to the bass response  (as opposed to just what your ears thought happened, which will be terribly inaccurate - and I mean for anyone, I'm not picking on you:) 

 

Then, if you end up in the situation where you have 2 or 3 spots to chose from that are all "good" ...  then do some listening tests to chose which one you like the best.

 

Edited by davewantsmoore
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Dave

 

I texted Mike L. and he suggested toeing-in the ML5's to point just behind listening position, approx. 15 deg (of course that depends on the speaker separation to listening distance). I'll give that a try to get me going and see where I end up.

 

One thing Mike did suggest was to put a bit of damping on the left hand wall under the painting as it would improve 3D soundstage. I said I would love to put more damping around the room, but the old WAF comes into play - YOU WANT TO DO WHAT &^#@$%  ?

 

Makes sense what you said about trying sub in a few places and see how the measurements change (good, bad or little change). If one is better than another I can have a listen then to see if it 'improves' SQ (subjective possibly). I didn't have time to set-up for measurements so just tired moving the Sub a bit more into the far right corner.

 

Possibly this weekend may get a chance to do some measurements and can take it from there.

 

Thanks again for all your info ?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Celts88 said:

damping on the left hand wall under the painting as it would improve 3D soundstage.

Placing the speakers (and TV) centred on the front wall, will be a lot more effective ..... and to me looks like it wouldn't ruin that aesthetics of the room at all.    Much less so (IMO) than handing something on the wall.

 

Placing absorption can help, but it has a complex (and generally undesirable) frequency dependant behaviour .... will absorb high frequencies very well, but progressively less and less as the frequency drops.

 

1 hour ago, Celts88 said:

YOU WANT TO DO WHAT &^#@$%  ?

It's very understandable.

 

 

I wouldn't over think any of this too much.   Focus on the basics, which are quite low impact.

  • Centre the speaker in the room, and toe them in a little
  • Measure the subwoofer in a few different places - focus on the ones which 'might' be approved by the boss.... while you're making a mess, measure a few other random/interesting spots, just to give you some perspective
  • Apply some EQ when you're all done .... don't fill in any 'bass holes' with too much EQ .... things that look Bad! on the response chart don't necessarily sound so horrible

 

Room acoustics wise, the fact that you are not too narrow, and you have no wall directly behind your seat (as far as I can see) is very good.   The importance of these can't be overstated.

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Placing the speakers (and TV) centred on the front wall, will be a lot more effective ..... and to me looks like it wouldn't ruin that aesthetics of the room at all.    Much less so (IMO) than handing something on the wall.

Ok, spoke with the boss (she who must be obeyed :P) and mentioned about trying to centre the speakers in the room. I only got the TV about 2 months ago and wish I'd hung it on the wall parallel with the window edge, but if need be I can do that later. This weekend will try shifting the display cabinet and speakers to centralise them and see how it goes (can move TV later).

 

Once I've done centring the speakers I can have a go at moving the Sub around (basically try it in the back right corner and then back left corner).

 

Sorry to ask, but what do you think is the typical spacing I need for the speakers out from the back wall (I have them approx. 1m forward), and how much from the side walls (I could start with 0.9m as have them currently about 2.2m apart. FYI the ML5's are bottom ported in case this helps with positioning from walls (is it less an issue distance with bottom ports), I've attached a photo of ML5's being built fyi (it was Darren69's ML5 Townshend footers being attached)

 

14 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Placing absorption can help, but it has a complex (and generally undesirable) frequency dependant behaviour .... will absorb high frequencies very well, but progressively less and less as the frequency drops.

Had a good read of other topics on here and most say I'd need LARGE traps for Bass, and as I don't have the luxury of that option then will give it a miss (don't want to start and end up making things worse). Only thing I may look at is absorption panel(s) to put over the front of the TV, but in the meantime I can just drape a large/thick blanket over it (should help a wee bit).

 

14 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

I wouldn't over think any of this too much.   Focus on the basics, which are quite low impact.

Thanks for that advice, I don't want to get caught going down a rabbit hole and not knowing how to escape. It's bad enough chasing nirvana with audio gear, but I'm pretty much settled with my gear now (ML5's, Devialet & Antipodes) so just wanted to try and sort the room out a bit better than it currently is (a living room).

 

14 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Room acoustics wise, the fact that you are not too narrow, and you have no wall directly behind your seat (as far as I can see) is very good.   The importance of these can't be overstated.

Below is a plan layout of my room, where you can see the front area is approx. a standard 4m x 5m. My sitting position is approx. 4m from front wall, with the speakers approx. 1m out from the front wall (this means I sit approx. 3m from the front of the speakers)

 

I've a Dining Room which is open(ish) behind me, with a part wall splitting it (don't think this would cause any major hassle to the SQ). On my back left side it also opens up to the front door entrance, but can't do anything about that.

 

My Room - Layout

1043802352_MyHi-FiListeningRoom.jpg.ef88f3cf0d032c7cdd799bb53019ecd1.jpg

 

My Room - Front

1369955796_MyRoom-Front.thumb.JPG.affb09b6243aa942c86a622bd2b308ea.JPG

 

My Room - Rear

1570425778_MyRoom-Rear.thumb.JPG.8d6bee6af2514e1c56c7f28ecdf1fe00.JPG

 

ML5's - Bottom Port

1080826895_ML5sBottomBafflePort.thumb.jpg.2e5dc69cd3086ee5c9a0bacd9e6c3499.jpg

Edited by Celts88
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Dave

 

Sorry, it's me the pest again.

 

So once I centre my speakers and seating position in the room do I then try and do the 38% rule for seating distance position. I think it means I have the settee 38% of full room length from the front wall, i.e. room total length 11m so settee sits 4.2m from front wall.

 

Regarding spacing of speakers from back wall is it the 1/3 rule or the 1.618 rule (I'm getting really confused with these one's). As I have bottom port speakers does that mean I can push the speakers a bit closer to the wall and not as big an issue.

 

Also for spacing between the mains that falls into the 1/3 rule also?

 

Sorry for all the dumb questions.

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10 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

do I rule?

 

 

I would not, as you will likely find that the rules are impractical for your room arrangement.

 

If you put your TV unit in the centre, and the speakers to the side, then they'll be about 2m apart (maybe a little more), with about 1m distance to each side wall.   This will work ok.

 

As for pulling the speakers forward.   I would pull them forward as far as you can cope with from a domestic/aesthetic perspective... and I figure 1m distance between speaker and front wall is going to be about the most you can do here.  This should also be ok.

 

I would sit closer than you are now, and have the distance from you to each speaker be 2.5-3m.... this will mean a few more degress toe in to get the "just behind you" advice from Mike to be right.

 

When you're doing this (eg. moving the speakers away from the front wall, or moving your listening position forward) ... You can take measurements at each point - and you will see the peaks and dips in the 100 to 400Hz region change .... and this might help you see whether moves are worth it, and to find just the right spot(s).

 

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Dave

 

Really appreciate all the info ?

 

Rules are only good if they're achievable, but in my room their not so go with most practical still following basic principles.

 

So I'll centre (as best I can) the speakers into the centre of the room along with my settee. Then bring speakers forward from back wall at least 1m (or more if practical), and depending where the speakers end up move the settee to within 2.5m-3m of speakers front. Finalise toe-in of speakers after all set.

 

Then I take measurements with REW to see if any specific location back or forward speakers & settee helps/deteriorates and then judge where best to leave front speakers & settee (bering in mind the crucial WAF :hyper:).

 

Once all above complete I can then have a go at shifting the sub around. Only really practical places I can put it is in the back left or right hand corners (right hand corner would best WAF). Hopefully by centring the speakers and listening position the major peaks/dips aren't as bad and the sub helps even more.

 

Cheers

John

 

Edited by Celts88
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Rules like 'The Thirds' etc. are really guides. You start with that position then move things about until you get it as best as possible. As this is mostly about getting the bass right (say 20-500Hz) that is what you should look at with your measurements. Generally, Thirds and Fifths have served me well but each speaker is different (as of course are rooms and their contents). I've no experience with subs so it may be you can be more flexible with these.

 

Again, I have no experience with the likes of a MiniDSP with Dirac but I've read that for those that can't use bass traps and are restricted with positioning (these are the ideal solutions), listeners have had success with these.

 

The other possibility is to move speakers and chair out for stereo listening, and back for domestic bliss! How practical that is is another matter.

 

One other thing. I notice that the left and right corners behind the speakers are not identical, one being wall, the other glass and blinds. My guess is that the left and right speakers will measure differently in the bass region because of this (maybe the difference between 60-600Hz on your frequency responses shown on the 25th July post) and it is possible that placing them slightly differently - one further from the side wall, or further out, then the other - may help there. Measuring and listening will confirm or otherwise.

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54 minutes ago, Hipper said:

I notice that the left and right corners behind the speakers are not identical, one being wall, the other glass and blinds. My guess is that the left and right speakers will measure differently in the bass region because of this

It won't matter anywhere near as much as people might think.     The geometry (distances, shapes, etc.) will have 11 zillion times more effect, than what the surfaces are made of - glass/blinds and wall look very similar to sound except at very high and very low frequencies.

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Can the bass drivers be powered separately on those speakers?

"Big" speakers in a small room and smoothing out bass response - I have previously taken a different approach and really cranked up the bass drivers on a 3 way speaker and then used EQ to pull down the peaks under 250-300Hz. Works very well if the bass drivers are capable and you have a powerful enough amp (class D for value). You can correct for dips etc due to speaker position, when in reality you are limited where you can move the speakers.

 

I guess a broader more fundamental question is what are the right type of speakers for that space and positioning limitations?

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