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Bit of a thread dig, but just wanted to add that I recently purchased some 4s8 cable and other bits of Cliff electronics for some DIY cable.   Gary just emailed advising he had upgraded the

I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: - https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/     Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as

It's great cable, and I've used a ton of it over the years. The only negative to it, is it doesn't have a boutique name nor BS engineering claims with which to bamboozle your audiophile friends.

Thankyou

Before I go ahead and purchase, Any feedback to using Canare 4S11 for 12M runs to my Paradigm 9se. One cable per channel so will be joining the two together for 11AWG

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Great cable.   And for that run should work very well.  

 

I use it myself   There are 4 wires in each cable.  Use 2 twisted together into each terminal.  

 

 

85EC1F48-A514-444E-9F88-D4F55BA3AD1A.jpeg

Edited by Bill125812
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On 07/07/2018 at 1:40 PM, christopher said:

Any feedback to using Canare 4S11

It's great cable, and I've used a ton of it over the years. The only negative to it, is it doesn't have a boutique name nor BS engineering claims with which to bamboozle your audiophile friends.

Swamp in Canberra (such an appropriate name) usually carry it but it's not listed. Might be worth a call.

Heathen that I am, I'll offer an even cheaper solution. 13AWG

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On 07/07/2018 at 1:25 PM, christopher said:

Does anyone know the best place to source 4S11 in Australia ? I need about 35 Meters for some long runs in my theatre room.

thanks

What is the longest run in your system? While the Canare exhibits a usefully lower inductance than ANY 'figure 8' type of cable, it may still be too high for your system. That would depend on the (measured) impedance CURVE of your speakers (not the manufacturer's published number) and the length of the run/s. 

 

Here are some comparisons:

 

Canare 4S11:

Inductance - 0.36uH/m

Resistance - 0.9 Ohms/100m

 

Belden 8477 (figure 8 style cable):

Inductance - 0.84uH/m

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

Goertz MI-1:

Inductance - 0.012uH/m (!!!!)

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

RG213/U:

Inductance - 0.23uH/m

Resistance - 1.7 Ohms/100m

 

The Canare would appear to be a pretty decent choice, though, when using difficult speakers and long runs, I would suggest the RG213/U as an economic, but slightly inconvenient cable to terminate, alternative. 

 

As can be seen, any of the above is a superior choice to a 'figure 8' (ANY figure 8 ) style cable, like the Belden. Goertz MI-1 is still one of the best, but at quite a high cost. 

 

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6 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Goertz MI-1:

Inductance - 0.012uH/m (!!!!)

Which comes at the cost of very high capacitance, something I'd be far more concerned about with a 12m run than a slight softening of the top end.

 

 

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Ok, I went ahead and got the 4s11 from cliff electronics. Great price and service and turned up overnight. So now I just need decide on termination. I would prefer banana plugs either solder or crimped, that will accept the 11awg of the Canare. Anyone know where I can get some? Don’t want the cheap rubbish from jaycar etc or the high priced brand name stuff for hundreds. Locally would be preferred if someone can help please.

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I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: -

https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/

 

172818345_ZPlugs.jpg.3d5447560a43d8dd14b773f9419bb85c.jpg

 

Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as shown or silver [which I prefer] as in the link.

 

Steven.

 

P.S  Cliff Electronics are a good bunch, get all my stuff from them, very good service.

 

Edited by Listener
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On 09/07/2018 at 6:11 PM, A9X said:

Which comes at the cost of very high capacitance, something I'd be far more concerned about with a 12m run than a slight softening of the top end.

 

 

Not gonna happen. The output impedance of any practical amplifier negates such an effect. Capacitance of speaker cables is, for the most part, irrelevant. Inductance and resistance are the only parameters of any significance, UNLESS a very poorly designed amplifier is being used.

Edited by Zaphod Beeblebrox
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I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: -
https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/
 
172818345_ZPlugs.jpg.3d5447560a43d8dd14b773f9419bb85c.jpg
 
Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as shown or silver [which I prefer] as in the link.
 
Steven.
 
P.S  Cliff Electronics are a good bunch, get all my stuff from them, very good service.
 

Do you think the set screws make good enough contact? Why do they call it cold welding, that can only Be obtained by high pressure crimping.
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The screws make very good contact, I have had no problems with them....unlike the cheap ones from EBay or Selby which come loose and are a waste of money.

 

The marketing blurb is what it is, some of it is factual, some of it is fanciful, I suggest you mentally redact anything you think is of the second kind.

 

Steven.

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18 minutes ago, christopher said:


Do you think the set screws make good enough contact? Why do they call it cold welding, that can only Be obtained by high pressure crimping.

This is one of the best banana connectors money can buy:

 

http://au.element14.com/multicomp/25-412-2/banana-plug-24a-4mm-free-black/dp/1698994

 

Not gold plated, but that doesn't matter with speaker connections. Solder only, of course. Crimp or solder speaker connectors only.

 

Another excellent connector:

 

http://au.element14.com/multicomp/25-413-2/plug-24a-4mm-cable-black/dp/1698964

 

And for a range of the very best available, these are all silver plated (silver is superior to gold in every sense):

 

http://au.element14.com/w/c/test-measurement/test-connectors-ic-clips/banana-plugs-jacks?gender=plug&contact-plating=silver-plated-contacts

 

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1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Not gonna happen. The output impedance of any practical amplifier negates such an effect.

Nope. The capacitive loading will have an effect on the dominant pole in the feedback loop and potentially cause oscillation.

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2 hours ago, Listener said:

I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: -

https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/

 

172818345_ZPlugs.jpg.3d5447560a43d8dd14b773f9419bb85c.jpg

 

Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as shown or silver [which I prefer] as in the link.

 

Steven.

 

I agree those springy, split cylindrical BPs are the best, in terms of maximum contact with the inside of the banana socket barrel ... but you don't have to buy the Audioquest versions.

 

Multi-Contact actually make them - and RS Components sell them in packs of 5.  Solder connection only, though.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, A9X said:

Nope. The capacitive loading will have an effect on the dominant pole in the feedback loop and potentially cause oscillation.

Only if the amp has been poorly designed. VERY poorly designed. 

 

A 10 Metre run of Goertz MI-1 exhibits a parallel capacitance of approximately 1.5 X 10-8 Farad. By comparison, a Martin Logan CLS exhibits approximately 4 X 10-6 Farad. 

 

There are very few amplifiers made that cannot cope with such a small capacitance across the output. 

 

The real problem is that SOME amplifiers cannot operate with highly capacitive loads, unless there is significant inductance in the speaker lines. 

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Just to follow up, hooked up the canare 12m runs just bare wire for now. Sounds fantastic. Probably due to last stuff being rubbish, cheap fig8 cable from jb probably plated tin. Much more dynamic, seems clearer. Very happy thanks for all the help

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1 hour ago, christopher said:

Just to follow up, hooked up the canare 12m runs just bare wire for now. Sounds fantastic. Probably due to last stuff being rubbish, cheap fig8 cable from jb probably plated tin. Much more dynamic, seems clearer. Very happy thanks for all the help

It's clearer because you are running lower inductance cables. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 09/07/2018 at 7:11 AM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

What is the longest run in your system? While the Canare exhibits a usefully lower inductance than ANY 'figure 8' type of cable, it may still be too high for your system. That would depend on the (measured) impedance CURVE of your speakers (not the manufacturer's published number) and the length of the run/s. 

 

Here are some comparisons:

 

Canare 4S11:

Inductance - 0.36uH/m

Resistance - 0.9 Ohms/100m

 

Belden 8477 (figure 8 style cable):

Inductance - 0.84uH/m

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

Goertz MI-1:

Inductance - 0.012uH/m (!!!!)

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

RG213/U:

Inductance - 0.23uH/m

Resistance - 1.7 Ohms/100m

 

The Canare would appear to be a pretty decent choice, though, when using difficult speakers and long runs, I would suggest the RG213/U as an economic, but slightly inconvenient cable to terminate, alternative. 

 

As can be seen, any of the above is a superior choice to a 'figure 8' (ANY figure 8 ) style cable, like the Belden. Goertz MI-1 is still one of the best, but at quite a high cost. 

 

Interesting. I just measured my home-brew speaker cable, it comes in at about 0.08µH/m and about 13pF/m. I made it from 5 lengths of Cat6 cable (20 twisted pairs), braided together Kumihimo-style. The individual leads in the Cat-6 cable are about 0.25mm2 (23AWG), so the combined cross section is about 5mm2 (10AWG). This is probably overkill for a 2.4m run into 11 Ohm speakers, but it was fun to make :)

 

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3 hours ago, Steffen said:

Interesting. I just measured my home-brew speaker cable, it comes in at about 0.08µH/m and about 13pF/m. I made it from 5 lengths of Cat6 cable (20 twisted pairs), braided together Kumihimo-style. The individual leads in the Cat-6 cable are about 0.25mm2 (23AWG), so the combined cross section is about 5mm2 (10AWG). This is probably overkill for a 2.4m run into 11 Ohm speakers, but it was fun to make :)

 

Your idea of fun and mine are obviously quite different.

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  • 1 month later...
On 13/07/2018 at 12:05 AM, BioBrian said:

Cliff also have a Van Damme 4 x 2.5 mm2 Star Quad. Anybody have comment on it?

"No" would seem to be the answer!

 

I can't find inductance figures for this (Van Damme Tour Grade 4-core, Part number 268-542-000) so don't know if it compares with the Canare. It has larger cross-section, so may suit my speaker-amp combination.

 

Amp is Parasound A 21 (250W/8 Ohm), speakers are 92? dB sensitivity 4-way DIY, min impedance about 3.5 Ohms.

 

Not sure if the Van Damme qualifies as 'star quad' at all (benefiting from connecting crossed cores).

 

Also wondering about appropriate gauge for this setup. Max cable length needs to be about 6m. (There's a 4mm version, not so available here in Oz).

 

(Apologies for not being relevant to the OP, but may be of interest generally).

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17 minutes ago, A9X said:

more than adequate. See here.

Thanks - from the table it would seem there's heaps of cross-section. Funny that those elaborate tests (from at least 15 years ago) didn't investigate, or even mention, inductance. Maybe it has to do with males tending to only see what we are looking at.

 

I read all the comments and theory and see the graphs, but I've never heard of anyone actually measuring the system outcomes of using different speaker cables. It should be easy (I intend to do it) to do FR response graphs in speaker software (eg Omnimic) that would show things like reduction in high frequency response.

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20 hours ago, BioBrian said:

didn't investigate, or even mention, inductance

As long as it is usefully low it is fine.

 

20 hours ago, BioBrian said:

I read all the comments and theory and see the graphs, but I've never heard of anyone actually measuring the system outcomes of using different speaker cables.

*waves*

 

Unless you are testing really bizarre cables, then you may struggle to get a accurate enough measurement setup to see the effects clearly in a frequency response chart.

 

Example... elsewhere on this site, I've posted a few pics of the different in frequency response between a very low output impedance amp, and a moderately high one (eg. ~5ohm).   There's ~1dB ... perhaps 2dB difference in the response. 

 

EDIT:  I should clarify that there was 1-2dB difference, in the example I measured .... but the difference could be smaller or larger depending on the speaker impedance, and output impedance of the different amplifiers compared.

 

Quote

It should be easy (I intend to do it) to do FR response graphs in speaker software (eg Omnimic) that would show things like reduction in high frequency response.

 

Edited by davewantsmoore
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4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

elsewhere on this site, I've posted a few pics of the different in frequency response between a very low output impedance amp, and a moderately high one (eg. ~5ohm).   There's ~1dB ... perhaps 2dB difference in the response.

Got a link Dave?

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10 hours ago, hochopeper said:

Got a link Dave?

Ooo... No idea.    Some sort of "this is the sound of valves vs ss" thread, where people we inferring there is some sort of different between amps which is un-measurable.

 

 

A couple of dB is a large difference on a linear scale, in engineering terms.

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PE and cotton sounds better than PVC - I'm ordering some 4S11.

 

Didn't really need more grey in my life, but maybe it'll shine some light into some other grey area.

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Amazing service from Cliff Electronics. I ordered from Qld on Wednesday, after some active communication, and opened the Canare 4S11 bag in southern Tas on Friday - was even sent a refund of extra postage.

 

It's bigger than I expected - 11 mm diameter, according to my Vernier gauge - and heavy, so I'm not concerned about lack of copper.

 

I made up 2 sets of cables for 2 separate systems, and on both the result is clearly positive. Compared with my good old 8 AWG multi-strand OFC "Fig-8", these new ones sound brighter and more (welcome) hard-hitting in the treble - as though this is what is being played, but has been getting through with some rounding of the corners. Harmonics from brass instruments, and the rawness of violins (I had one under my left ear for 30 years) is more real. Bass is very clear too - lots of space down there. Very pleased.

 

Then the sad part - I got out the DATS software (and hardware), unplugged the amp, and connected the DATS leads to the amp end of the cables. The other ends were plugged into my speakers as usual. I made a pretty picture on screen of the "Impedance sweep". Then fitted the old cables and did the same. Sorry to see, they were identical.

 

Then I tested using Omnimic. This plays a frequency sweep through the system, the measurement mike picks up the sound, and makes a "frequency response" graph on screen.

 

I made graphs with the 2 different cables, in exactly the same setup, and, you guessed it - practically identical. Maybe a tiny bit of difference in the (thinner, so easier to tell) phase line above about 7 kHz, but this jumps around a fair bit anyway.

 

Sad, but I'm not crying over it - I hear a clear improvement and I'm sure others would too, in a DBT. Just another one of those audiophyllia phenomena, or are there better tests?

 

I didn't measure the 2nd systm outcomes, but the sound has been consistently more clear and energetic, all through having being left with a challenging HDCD on 'repeat' for several hours.

 

 

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On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

I hear a clear improvement and I'm sure others would too, in a DBT.

I'd put good money on them not.

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3 hours ago, A9X said:

I'd put good money on them not.

 

Does that mean you'd put money on the validity of my tests? Going by them, the influence of the new cables on my system would be nil. Safe bet, but I think there's more to the story.

 

Two things that come to mind are noise rejection, and distortion. I think I can test the latter using Omnimic. And I suspect there's more to it than that!

 

I don't know the inductance figures of 4S11 used as 'star quad', but the inductance would be just SO tiny, compared with the deliberate inductance I use in my passive speaker crossovers (there's no deliberate series inductance in the tweeter filter).

 

To my mind, the basic tests above show that the cable inductance of 4S11 and 8 AWG 'Fig 8' have no relevant difference. At least, not enough to cause any high frequency loss, or other feared audible changes.

 

However, my interest is in why they sound better, especially if others hear it too. Definitely to be tried at the next GTG.

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Just now, BioBrian said:

Two things that come to mind are noise rejection, and distortion

The system is still single ended and low impedance so noise rejection is not likely to be an issue at all.

 

Never, ever seen a cable make any sort of non linear distortion and it has no capacity to do so, so again, not likely at all to be an issue, especially an audibly significant one.

3 minutes ago, BioBrian said:

To my mind, the basic tests above show that the cable inductance of 4S11 and 8 AWG 'Fig 8' have no relevant difference. At least, not enough to cause any high frequency loss, or other feared audible changes.

I agree.

4 minutes ago, BioBrian said:

However, my interest is in why they sound better

New toy, confirmation bias, sighted listening test, plus if you're normal, you've just spent money on something and there will be a part of you that just wants it to be better.

 

For some reason your last sentence won't quote down into the reply. My response is that a DBT is very hard to do, especially at a GTG. If not a good DBT, then all of the previous reasons will apply.

 

I'm glad you're happy with it. I've run kms of this stuff over the years and it's great. Same with the L4E6S and the equivalent Mogami and Belden products. Anyone else reading can buy them with confidence. Best of all they're very affordable.

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3 minutes ago, A9X said:

New toy, confirmation bias, sighted listening test, plus if you're normal, you've just spent money on something and there will be a part of you that just wants it to be better.

Nuh. Maybe for some people, seduced by retail garbage. As a fellow musician, you must know that hearing is to be relied upon. Otherwise, we'd still sound like bagpipes (Beecham joke ref).

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On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Sorry to see, they were identical

You may see some tiny differences if you zoom right in.... or not.

 

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Then I tested using Omnimic. This plays a frequency sweep through the system, the measurement mike picks up the sound, and makes a "frequency response" graph on screen.

I made graphs with the 2 different cables, in exactly the same setup, and, you guessed it - practically identical.

If you take repeat tests, you will likely find that it's within the measurement error/reproducible of your setup.

 

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Maybe a tiny bit of difference in the (thinner, so easier to tell) phase line above about 7 kHz, but this jumps around a fair bit anyway.

Take multiple measurements to confirm it is consistent.  ;) 

 

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Just another one of those audiophyllia phenomena, or are there better tests?

The tests you are running can show you things that don't matter .... and can not show you things which do matter.

 

Different power levels, burst tests...  but you are probably looking for 'nothing'  ;)

 

Getting up and sitting back down will probably make more difference to what you hear (audio memory, head positioning, etc.)

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5 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Take multiple measurements to confirm it is consistent.

I was looking for something worthy of posting, so I did the tests many times. Just couldn't get anything at all. Not even 'fake news'.

6 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

The tests you are running can show you things that don't matter .... and can not show you things which do matter.

That's the gist of my report. Hence my comment about "males only seeing what they are looking at". My point was, that I do think there's something else in this.

8 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Getting up and sitting back down will probably make more difference to what you hear (audio memory, head positioning, etc.)

Ha, yes! I haven't received the banana plugs yet, so there was a fair old bit of grunting and sweating, up the ladder and behind the gear, trying to find those binder-post holes. All repeatable in a DBT though, depending if throat lubrication and fluid replacement are well attended to ?.

 

There are many other variables now, ready for testing. The innocents likely to brave the elements here will have not a jot of an inkling what they are listening to.

 

(Oh, and did I mention the power cable? Guaranteed to bring a flush to the most weathered cheeks).

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1 hour ago, BioBrian said:

I was looking for something worthy of posting, so I did the tests many times. Just couldn't get anything at all. Not even 'fake news'.

Sure... that would be my expectation (not see anything).

 

1 hour ago, BioBrian said:

That's the gist of my report. Hence my comment about "males only seeing what they are looking at". My point was, that I do think there's something else in this.

If you speaker output is different... that can be measured.... but you may have to move into much more elaborate tests than just a frequency sweep, which doesn't show much.

 

1 hour ago, BioBrian said:

All repeatable in a DBT though

Make sure you avoid all the usual traps..... eg. do enough trials.

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/07/2018 at 6:49 PM, christopher said:

Ok, I went ahead and got the 4s11 from cliff electronics. Great price and service and turned up overnight. So now I just need decide on termination. I would prefer banana plugs either solder or crimped, that will accept the 11awg of the Canare. Anyone know where I can get some? Don’t want the cheap rubbish from jaycar etc or the high priced brand name stuff for hundreds. Locally would be preferred if someone can help please.

This is what I use... Seem to work well. I use them on with Mogami 3103. Spec for connectors says that they will accept up to 10AWG cables. However, if your twisting two cores of the canare for each leg, then getting both through aperture in the connectors might be a struggle.
There are options on the linked page to select the pack sizes, btw.

Benefits for me were...No soldering and reasonable price.

 

Sewell Deadbolts Bananas

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