Canare 4S11 Cable

[BioBrian]

17 minutes ago, A9X said:

more than adequate. See here.

Thanks - from the table it would seem there's heaps of cross-section. Funny that those elaborate tests (from at least 15 years ago) didn't investigate, or even mention, inductance. Maybe it has to do with males tending to only see what we are looking at.

 

I read all the comments and theory and see the graphs, but I've never heard of anyone actually measuring the system outcomes of using different speaker cables. It should be easy (I intend to do it) to do FR response graphs in speaker software (eg Omnimic) that would show things like reduction in high frequency response.

[davewantsmoore]

20 hours ago, BioBrian said:

didn't investigate, or even mention, inductance

As long as it is usefully low it is fine.

 

20 hours ago, BioBrian said:

I read all the comments and theory and see the graphs, but I've never heard of anyone actually measuring the system outcomes of using different speaker cables.

*waves*

 

Unless you are testing really bizarre cables, then you may struggle to get a accurate enough measurement setup to see the effects clearly in a frequency response chart.

 

Example... elsewhere on this site, I've posted a few pics of the different in frequency response between a very low output impedance amp, and a moderately high one (eg. ~5ohm).   There's ~1dB ... perhaps 2dB difference in the response. 

 

EDIT:  I should clarify that there was 1-2dB difference, in the example I measured .... but the difference could be smaller or larger depending on the speaker impedance, and output impedance of the different amplifiers compared.

 

Quote

It should be easy (I intend to do it) to do FR response graphs in speaker software (eg Omnimic) that would show things like reduction in high frequency response.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by davewantsmoore

[hochopeper]

4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

elsewhere on this site, I've posted a few pics of the different in frequency response between a very low output impedance amp, and a moderately high one (eg. ~5ohm).   There's ~1dB ... perhaps 2dB difference in the response.

Got a link Dave?

[davewantsmoore]

10 hours ago, hochopeper said:

Got a link Dave?

Ooo... No idea.    Some sort of "this is the sound of valves vs ss" thread, where people we inferring there is some sort of different between amps which is un-measurable.

 

 

A couple of dB is a large difference on a linear scale, in engineering terms.

[BioBrian]

PE and cotton sounds better than PVC - I'm ordering some 4S11.

 

Didn't really need more grey in my life, but maybe it'll shine some light into some other grey area.

[BioBrian]

Amazing service from Cliff Electronics. I ordered from Qld on Wednesday, after some active communication, and opened the Canare 4S11 bag in southern Tas on Friday - was even sent a refund of extra postage.

 

It's bigger than I expected - 11 mm diameter, according to my Vernier gauge - and heavy, so I'm not concerned about lack of copper.

 

I made up 2 sets of cables for 2 separate systems, and on both the result is clearly positive. Compared with my good old 8 AWG multi-strand OFC "Fig-8", these new ones sound brighter and more (welcome) hard-hitting in the treble - as though this is what is being played, but has been getting through with some rounding of the corners. Harmonics from brass instruments, and the rawness of violins (I had one under my left ear for 30 years) is more real. Bass is very clear too - lots of space down there. Very pleased.

 

Then the sad part - I got out the DATS software (and hardware), unplugged the amp, and connected the DATS leads to the amp end of the cables. The other ends were plugged into my speakers as usual. I made a pretty picture on screen of the "Impedance sweep". Then fitted the old cables and did the same. Sorry to see, they were identical.

 

Then I tested using Omnimic. This plays a frequency sweep through the system, the measurement mike picks up the sound, and makes a "frequency response" graph on screen.

 

I made graphs with the 2 different cables, in exactly the same setup, and, you guessed it - practically identical. Maybe a tiny bit of difference in the (thinner, so easier to tell) phase line above about 7 kHz, but this jumps around a fair bit anyway.

 

Sad, but I'm not crying over it - I hear a clear improvement and I'm sure others would too, in a DBT. Just another one of those audiophyllia phenomena, or are there better tests?

 

I didn't measure the 2nd systm outcomes, but the sound has been consistently more clear and energetic, all through having being left with a challenging HDCD on 'repeat' for several hours.

 

 

[A9X]

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

I hear a clear improvement and I'm sure others would too, in a DBT.

I'd put good money on them not.

[BioBrian]

3 hours ago, A9X said:

I'd put good money on them not.

 

Does that mean you'd put money on the validity of my tests? Going by them, the influence of the new cables on my system would be nil. Safe bet, but I think there's more to the story.

 

Two things that come to mind are noise rejection, and distortion. I think I can test the latter using Omnimic. And I suspect there's more to it than that!

 

I don't know the inductance figures of 4S11 used as 'star quad', but the inductance would be just SO tiny, compared with the deliberate inductance I use in my passive speaker crossovers (there's no deliberate series inductance in the tweeter filter).

 

To my mind, the basic tests above show that the cable inductance of 4S11 and 8 AWG 'Fig 8' have no relevant difference. At least, not enough to cause any high frequency loss, or other feared audible changes.

 

However, my interest is in why they sound better, especially if others hear it too. Definitely to be tried at the next GTG.

[A9X]

Just now, BioBrian said:

Two things that come to mind are noise rejection, and distortion

The system is still single ended and low impedance so noise rejection is not likely to be an issue at all.

 

Never, ever seen a cable make any sort of non linear distortion and it has no capacity to do so, so again, not likely at all to be an issue, especially an audibly significant one.

3 minutes ago, BioBrian said:

To my mind, the basic tests above show that the cable inductance of 4S11 and 8 AWG 'Fig 8' have no relevant difference. At least, not enough to cause any high frequency loss, or other feared audible changes.

I agree.

4 minutes ago, BioBrian said:

However, my interest is in why they sound better

New toy, confirmation bias, sighted listening test, plus if you're normal, you've just spent money on something and there will be a part of you that just wants it to be better.

 

For some reason your last sentence won't quote down into the reply. My response is that a DBT is very hard to do, especially at a GTG. If not a good DBT, then all of the previous reasons will apply.

 

I'm glad you're happy with it. I've run kms of this stuff over the years and it's great. Same with the L4E6S and the equivalent Mogami and Belden products. Anyone else reading can buy them with confidence. Best of all they're very affordable.

[BioBrian]

3 minutes ago, A9X said:

New toy, confirmation bias, sighted listening test, plus if you're normal, you've just spent money on something and there will be a part of you that just wants it to be better.

Nuh. Maybe for some people, seduced by retail garbage. As a fellow musician, you must know that hearing is to be relied upon. Otherwise, we'd still sound like bagpipes (Beecham joke ref).

[davewantsmoore]

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Canare 4S11

It's what I use on some of my speakers.

[davewantsmoore]

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Sorry to see, they were identical

You may see some tiny differences if you zoom right in.... or not.

 

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Then I tested using Omnimic. This plays a frequency sweep through the system, the measurement mike picks up the sound, and makes a "frequency response" graph on screen.

I made graphs with the 2 different cables, in exactly the same setup, and, you guessed it - practically identical.

If you take repeat tests, you will likely find that it's within the measurement error/reproducible of your setup.

 

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Maybe a tiny bit of difference in the (thinner, so easier to tell) phase line above about 7 kHz, but this jumps around a fair bit anyway.

Take multiple measurements to confirm it is consistent.   

 

On 02/09/2018 at 8:08 PM, BioBrian said:

Just another one of those audiophyllia phenomena, or are there better tests?

The tests you are running can show you things that don't matter .... and can not show you things which do matter.

 

Different power levels, burst tests...  but you are probably looking for 'nothing' 

 

Getting up and sitting back down will probably make more difference to what you hear (audio memory, head positioning, etc.)

[BioBrian]

 

5 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Take multiple measurements to confirm it is consistent.

I was looking for something worthy of posting, so I did the tests many times. Just couldn't get anything at all. Not even 'fake news'.

6 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

The tests you are running can show you things that don't matter .... and can not show you things which do matter.

That's the gist of my report. Hence my comment about "males only seeing what they are looking at". My point was, that I do think there's something else in this.

8 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Getting up and sitting back down will probably make more difference to what you hear (audio memory, head positioning, etc.)

Ha, yes! I haven't received the banana plugs yet, so there was a fair old bit of grunting and sweating, up the ladder and behind the gear, trying to find those binder-post holes. All repeatable in a DBT though, depending if throat lubrication and fluid replacement are well attended to .

 

There are many other variables now, ready for testing. The innocents likely to brave the elements here will have not a jot of an inkling what they are listening to.

 

(Oh, and did I mention the power cable? Guaranteed to bring a flush to the most weathered cheeks).

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, BioBrian said:

I was looking for something worthy of posting, so I did the tests many times. Just couldn't get anything at all. Not even 'fake news'.

Sure... that would be my expectation (not see anything).

 

1 hour ago, BioBrian said:

That's the gist of my report. Hence my comment about "males only seeing what they are looking at". My point was, that I do think there's something else in this.

If you speaker output is different... that can be measured.... but you may have to move into much more elaborate tests than just a frequency sweep, which doesn't show much.

 

1 hour ago, BioBrian said:

All repeatable in a DBT though

Make sure you avoid all the usual traps..... eg. do enough trials.

[welly]

On 10/07/2018 at 6:49 PM, christopher said:

Ok, I went ahead and got the 4s11 from cliff electronics. Great price and service and turned up overnight. So now I just need decide on termination. I would prefer banana plugs either solder or crimped, that will accept the 11awg of the Canare. Anyone know where I can get some? Don’t want the cheap rubbish from jaycar etc or the high priced brand name stuff for hundreds. Locally would be preferred if someone can help please.

This is what I use... Seem to work well. I use them on with Mogami 3103. Spec for connectors says that they will accept up to 10AWG cables. However, if your twisting two cores of the canare for each leg, then getting both through aperture in the connectors might be a struggle.
There are options on the linked page to select the pack sizes, btw.

Benefits for me were...No soldering and reasonable price.

 

Sewell Deadbolts Bananas

[ryan234]

Bit of a thread dig, but just wanted to add that I recently purchased some 4s8 cable and other bits of Cliff electronics for some DIY cable.

 

Gary just emailed advising he had upgraded the sleeving (i guess i ordered the wrong size:) and chucked in some heatshrink.

 

So big thumbs up from me.

 

Thanks guys, for the recommendation..

[ray4410]

yes the service and prices from cliff electronics are first rate,have dealt with them several time's and always with great results,

so a big thumbs-up from me also.