gavincato Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 hey guys A little prob that is annoying me. Setup is something like this ; Projector > 12.5m hdmi cable -> Yamaha 3900 receiver -> Elektra power amp -> speakers ps3 used for blurays. I'm sure the lip sync is a little off. I've tried adjusting the delay but no matter what I try it always seems a fraction off. I play with how many ms to delay the sound by and I might get it looking ok for 1 movie, but then a week later I'll watch another movie and it looks out a bit. The problem is I now watch the speech a bit closely and imagine everything is out of sync! Is there any dummy proof way to work out the delay needed? I'm assuming this problem is mostly due to the long hdmi cable. cheers Gav
myrantz Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 Is there any dummy proof way to work out the delay needed? I'm assuming this problem is mostly due to the long hdmi cable. Delay prob to do with video processing. Not distance. HDMI v1.3 with auto lipsync is supposed to do this automatically. Your TV/projector feeds back to yoru audio processor telling it the delay to set. If that don't work for you (never did for me), you can use some test patterns (e.g. DVE) has this timing video - a clock and when it hits 12 it strikes a beep. You can use that to fine tune.. Recently I also used some footage from 24 (the TV series) as a guide. I've added a video processor recently (DVDO edge).. and somehow lip sync works straight out the box. Another option for you to consider...
gavincato Posted May 6, 2010 Author Posted May 6, 2010 just googled the dvdo edge, looks like it has some funky lipsync features built in which prob explains it. What are they worth, around 1k? might be a option if I can't get it fixed manually. thanks
myrantz Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 just googled the dvdo edge, looks like it has some funky lipsync features built in which prob explains it. What are they worth, around 1k? might be a option if I can't get it fixed manually. You should be able to fix it manually, via those test patterns I mention earlier... I have no idea how the edge sync up the video/audio (sync packet or examining the video frame itself?) but it works for me... But YMMV
IanD1503559705 Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 My understanding is that the Edge knows how much video delay it is introducing by its processing and delays the digital audio by the same amount. My concern has always been video processing, performed in the display device, introducing delays that aren't being similarly added by the audio receiver. I think it's time that displays became just dumb monitors with no processing at all and all video/audio processing performed in dedicated outboard processors where sync can be controlled. The only time I get perfect sync is if I feed HDMI to the TV and use the TV speakers for audio.
myrantz Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 My understanding is that the Edge knows how much video delay it is introducing by its processing and delays the digital audio by the same amount. I wonder how it does that.. OTOH, even if somebody explains it to me, I wouldn't understand it.. My concern has always been video processing, performed in the display device, introducing delays that aren't being similarly added by the audio receiver. HDMI 1.3 is supposed to feed the information from TV back to the audio processor (as I understand it), But that didn't work for me before. I think it's time that displays became just dumb monitors with no processing at all and all video/audio processing performed in dedicated outboard processors where sync can be controlled. Such monitors do exist, TVs for commercial use and hotels are dumb monitors. I also use a PC monitor before as my display back when I can't find a TV. Given a choice a dumb panel will be my first choice too.. 100hz/200hz processing can be done in a video processor. I hate the 100hz processor on my TV, I can't seem to turn it off!!!!
gavincato Posted May 7, 2010 Author Posted May 7, 2010 treblid audio delays aside, do you think the edge is a good addition to your setup?
myrantz Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 treblid audio delays aside, do you think the edge is a good addition to your setup? For me it is... Becoz my AVR's video processing is pretty weak, and my main source is a HTPC, which does a very bad job at deinterlacing TV programs. My audio goes all over the places, slower in NineHD, faster with OneHD, etc. Since getting the edge, I don't have to deal with adjusting sound delay anymore. The edge solved all those little annoyances (I actually bought the Edge hoping it'd solve a ground loop issue I have )... That said.... As a video processor, it does clean up FTA signals quite significantly.. Making them watchable again.. But the picture still seems off somehow, something still don't seem quite right but I can't really put a finger to it (I hope it's becoz I havn't really setup the pictures controls correctly yet)... Also I don't like the design of the box at all (bottom vent holes are blocked, weird front fascia).. Other than this two issues, I can't really fault the unit. So yeah, it's a great addition to my setup. Admittedly a tad overkill (I don't have a projector), but no regrets.... Apparently there are reliability issues with the Edge though, I'm hoping mine will stay alive for a while...
brodricj Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 (edited) My understanding is that the Edge knows how much video delay it is introducing by its processing and delays the digital audio by the same amount. Correct. All the current DVDO processors have this feature. The lipsync is out or drifts to varying degrees because the audio processing happens separately to the video processing, and the video processing always takes longer. There might also be a sync error in the AV source not attributable to any processing. Video processing delay also varies depending on mode, sometimes requiring 5 fields of interlaced video (at 50 fields per second = 100 milliseconds delay). The video processor knows this and so automatically increases the audio delay to match. However the processor can't automatically correct for sync error in the original signal, which is why you might need to fine tune the delay manually to get a perfect sync. Edited May 7, 2010 by beejay76
myrantz Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 Correct. All the current DVDO processors have this feature. The lipsync is out or drifts to varying degrees because the audio processing happens separately to the video processing, and the video processing always takes longer. There might also be a sync error in the AV source not attributable to any processing. Video processing delay also varies depending on mode, sometimes requiring 5 fields of interlaced video (at 50 fields per second = 100 milliseconds delay). The video processor knows this and so automatically increases the audio delay to match. However the processor can't automatically correct for sync error in the original signal, which is why you might need to fine tune the delay manually to get a perfect sync. Stupid question: Isn't HDMI 1.3 with auto lip-sync option supposed to fix this? Or maybe this feature is not working on my AVR? Sejanus, is the auto lip-sync option enabled on ur Yamaha? Another dumb moment: I never tried turning this option off before...
gavincato Posted May 7, 2010 Author Posted May 7, 2010 I've tried with and without the auto lipsync feature however I think my projector is hdmi 1.2
gavincato Posted May 9, 2010 Author Posted May 9, 2010 well treblid you owe me $900 I googled the dvdo edge after you mentioned it and the more I read about it the more I thought it'd be a good thing. I watch lots of SD stuff on my projector and also still have a library of sd dvd's. So I grabbed one, and as you mentioned the lip sync just magically works across all my different sources. The lipsync is now absolutely precise. The box does a good job of cleaning up tv and standard def material as well. Not huge improvements, but worthwhile to have on a big screen like I do.
hakka69 Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 I had some sync with sync issues when I first got my HDDVD player. I tried the DVE sync test but ended up using a scene from Gladiator, I haven't seen it for a while but before one of the coliseum fights Proximo is giving a speech to the Gladiators stabs a sword into the table. The auto lip sync needs to be switched on in the AVR, I think my Denon was off by default. Hakka.
myrantz Posted May 10, 2010 Posted May 10, 2010 well treblid you owe me $900 Congrats... It took me a year and some to pull the trigger and only took you days... I googled the dvdo edge after you mentioned it and the more I read about it the more I thought it'd be a good thing. I watch lots of SD stuff on my projector and also still have a library of sd dvd's. So I grabbed one, and as you mentioned the lip sync just magically works across all my different sources. The lipsync is now absolutely precise. Strange how the edge just works right? Not sure about the absolutely precise part (didnt' really check it out), but the sync works and didn't bother me at all now (prob <10ms). The box does a good job of cleaning up tv and standard def material as well. Not huge improvements, but worthwhile to have on a big screen like I do. Still works on a small screen though .. Esp cleaned up Channel 10.. Wife very happy watching MasterChef (actually only rented 3 BD since). Just in case, if you can, raise the bottom of the edge off the shelf by risers or something. If you look at the bottom of the Edge you will see some vent holes. I think by design the Edge is supposed to sit ontop of the AVR. And if you don't, the bottom holes will be blocked, and there may be heat issues.. For my case I just use a clear plastic lid of a Ferraro Roche (sp?) box and put it under the edge. The unit is pretty cool atm (i'm using an open air rack so YMMV). I had some sync with sync issues when I first got my HDDVD player. I tried the DVE sync test but ended up using a scene from Gladiator, I haven't seen it for a while but before one of the coliseum fights Proximo is giving a speech to the Gladiators stabs a sword into the table. Too fast? If yes +1, it's too quick .. Any scene with multiple visual/sound cues should do.. Gotta say that is definitely better than the ticking clock of 24.. LoL.. The auto lip sync needs to be switched on in the AVR, I think my Denon was off by default. I turned it on I guess (coz it's still on atm).. Did Denon's LipSync work for you?
hakka69 Posted May 10, 2010 Posted May 10, 2010 I turned it on I guess (coz it's still on atm).. Did Denon's LipSync work for you? I turned it on when I first set up my 3808, as far as I know it works but I've never watched anything with it switched off. Hakka.
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