petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I recently acquired this to be used as a processor mainly but because there are enough people who keep asking me this, I will also try it in stereo. (not in HT as there are too many cables to unhook). My amp was bought from KEC in Singapore (see my buying overseas thread for more info) Expect to pay about SING $ 1000 plus tax. FAQS: FAQs on the Denon AVR 1909 / 2309 Adapted from a post to AVS with changes to suit our model and information for the 2309 only. Reviews: http://whathifi.com/Review/Denon-AVR-1909/ FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS 1. GENERAL PRODUCT INFORMATION Q. I noticed that the AVR 2309ci/889 is only a couple hundred more. Is it worth it to step up to the higher model? A. The primary benefit of the 2309/889 vs the 1909/789 is the addition of the fourth HDMI input. Both 1909/789 and 2309/889 have identical audio decoding capability, identical video processing capability, identical multizone functionality, and identical Audyssey feature sets. This is a list of features you gain stepping up from 1909/789 to 2309/889: 1. 2 lbs heavier, and slightly more power (100Wx7 instead of 90Wx7) 2. A fourth rear HDMI input 3. A fourth rear S-video input 4. S-video and optical audio inputs on front auxilliary input 5. Dedicated phono input with pre-amp stage 6. Component video bandwidth is rated at 100MHz (up from 60MHz on 1909/789) 7. Slightly better DAC 8. Detachable power cord 9. RS232 and 12V Trigger ports (2309ci only) 10. pre-outs for all channels Only you can decide if these features are "worth it", please do not ask Q: I’m afraid to buy a Yamaha because it clips the HDMI video signal, and I’m afraid to buy a Harman Kardon because of all the problems with the PS3. Please tell me the Denon works? A: Denon seems to get HDMI implementation correct. At this point, there are no known bugs at all with the 1909/2309 and the PS3. Enjoy! The Denon 1909/2309 will also correctly pass BTB/WTW signals over HDMI (no video clipping), and test patterns have confirmed that it does not touch digital video while passing it through. The only thing generally wrong with Denons is the sucky manual! Q. Does the AVR 1909/2309 screw up the video at all? A. Not that we know of. As noted above, all Denon AVR’s correctly pass BTB/WTW. The 1909 will not do ANY processing to HDMI video. The only thing it will do is pass the video through. There is NO processing and NO degrading/clipping of HDMI video at all. The 2309 can upscale. The only video processing available is analog-to-digital transcoding and scaling. The analog>digital transcode may soften the picture slightly, although you probably will never notice it. If you leave all the video settings at the defaults, the Denon will take any analog signal you input and output it via HDMI at the highest resolution setting your TV accepts. The Faroudja scaler in the Denon does a good job in general with standard definition material (as it was specifically designed for 480i deinterlacing in progressive DVD players), but it is no great shakes in terms of scaling and HD processing (especially 1080i deinterlacing). However, it may still be better than the video processing in your TV. You will have to test this out yourself and see which does a better job. If you would like to disable the video processing on an analog source, set “i/p Scaler” to OFF under MENU > INPUT SETUP > VIDEO. When the scaler is set to OFF, it will just pass through analog signals to the HDMI output at the same resolution they came in, with no processing or scaling. For some specific reviews of the Denon’s video processing using this Faroudja implementation, please read the following two reviews of the 3808ci. The video processing section is the same as the 1909/2309 , except for the fact that digital video processing is available in the 3808ci and not in the 1909. So ignore the parts about digital video, but all of the commentary about analog video processing will apply: Home Theater Mag: http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/608recfeat/index2.html CNET (scroll to the end section on Video): http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers/denon...7-32553611.html Q: I'm afraid to buy an Onkyo because people say it runs so hot. Does the 1909/2309 run hot? A: The 1909/2309 does not run very hot. AVS member Bugs has graciously tested this out for us, his results are pasted below: Temperature The 1909 is a relatively cool-running component. Installed in a 5.1 system, on an open shelf, with 8" of clearance on the sides and 5" of clearance on the top and back, the 1909 had a temperature rise of 26F -28F (14C - 15C) after running for 2 hours at a volume of -18dB. For a comparison, an Onkyo TX-SR606 installed in the same system had a temperature rise of 50F - 52 F (28C - 29C) under the same conditions. Link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....62#post14532462 Member Alan TN has also independently corroborated Bugs' results: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....88#post14412888 Q: What about power consumption? A: Bugs has also been gracious enough to test this out with a "Kill-A-Watt" meter: Power Consumption and Memory There are 4 power states. 1. OFF: No power to any circuit (0 watts) 2. Standby, HDMI Control OFF: Power supplied to memory circuits (0.3 watts) 3. Standby, HDMI Control ON: Power supplied to memory and HDMI switching (30 watts) 4. ON: Power to all circuits (60 - 110 watts) Toggle between OFF and Standby using the "ON/OFF" button. Toggle between Standby and ON using the "ON/Standby" Button. Toggle between "HDMI Control OFF" and "HDMI Control ON" in Menu>Manual Setup>HDMI Setup>HDMI Control. Note: setting HDMI Control to ON enables the 1909 / 2309 to do an HDMI pass-through of audio and video signals when it is in Standby mode. The memory circuits are powered in all states except OFF. The 1909 / 2309 has memory back up that will retain Audyssey and other custom settings for about a week. If the 1909 is left OFF or unplugged for more than a week, you will lose any settings in memory and have to rerun Audyssey and input any personal tweaks again. 2. AUDYSSEY Q. What is the deal with these new Audyssey features, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ? A. The guys who made it can explain it best. Here are links to Audyssey's explanations of the new technologies: Audyssey Dynamic Volume: http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamicvolume.html Audyssey Dynamic EQ: http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamicEQ.html Note that these technologies are supplements to, not replacements for, the Audyssey MultEQ auto-calibration and room EQ system. Q. What is Audyssey MultEQ? A. Audyssey MultEQ is a powerful auto-setup and room calibration program which applies frequency correction to your speakers in an effort to compensate for any acoustical problems inherent to your room. For more information, please see the Audyssey FAQ on the "official" Audyssey thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....95#post14456895 Also, check out the Audyssey MultEQ product description at the Audyssey website: http://www.audyssey.com/technology/index.html Q. I ran Audyssey and my subwoofer level is strange / I ran Audyssey and my speaker levels look really funky... what gives? A. All of these questions are common Audyssey questions and fully covered in the Audyssey FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....95#post14456895 Feel free to simply turn down your subwoofer (either on the sub’s volume control or in the receiver’s channel level settings) if you find it’s too boomy. It won’t screw up Audyssey EQ’ing. Q. Audyssey set my speakers to "large" and I know they should be "small", will changing this manually screw up Audyssey? A. No, it won't hurt anything and is actually recommended in many cases. This is well covered in the Audyssey FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....95#post14456895 Q. Is the “Night” mode the same thing as “Dynamic Volume”? A. No, the “Night” button on the remote is for the old-school version of “Night” mode that receivers have had for years, it is nothing more than a simple dynamic range compressor. Denon confusingly left a dedicated “Night” button on the remote, but this button does NOT have anything to do with Dynamic Volume or Audyssey at all. If you are using the Audyssey Dynamic Volume (and you should, it is a much more sophisticated version of “Night” mode), then you should never touch the “Night” mode button. 3. GENERAL SETUP AND HDMI / VIDEO OPTIONS Q. How the heck do I set this thing up?? A. You need to be patient, and walk through the setup menus step-by-step. First, hook everything up, and WRITE DOWN exactly what you plugged in where, because you will have to assign all your inputs to coordinate. This isn't like the good old days where you just plugged the "TV" audio into the plug called "TV" and called it a day. Once you have everything plugged in and you are ready to go, think of it as a three step process: STEP 1. Set up all of your basic speaker parameters (size, distance, level, etc) -- this can be accomplished either through the AUTO SETUP menu (letting Audyssey do it), or manually in the MANUAL SETUP menu under SPEAKER SETUP. STEP 2. Set up all of the basic options for video output, Zone 2, etc. -- these are all in the MANUAL SETUP menu, after SPEAKER SETUP (see page 29 of the manual). See the next FAQ question for info on HDMI settings. STEP 3. Set up your specific input assignments and other input-specific settings (like renaming the “HDP” input to say “PS3” for example). This is accomplished in the INPUT SETUP menu (see page 38 of the manual). For a more detailed explanation, refer to this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....22#post14445722 The other two main menu areas, PARAMETER and INFORMATION, are not used when setting up the receiver. The PARAMETER menu is for adjusting specific sound parameters depending on the surround mode you are in (see page 46 of the manual). Note that not all parameters will be available all the time, this menu changes depending on what surround mode you are currently in (e.g. Dolby Digital vs. Stereo vs. DTS-MA etc.). Pages 76-77 of the manual detail which parameters are adjustable according to which surround mode you are using. The INFORMATION menu is, you guessed it, just to get information about various things going on in your receiver (see page 52 of the manual). Q. What should I do with all of these HDMI settings? I don’t know what any of them mean? A. In general, with a typical home setup you can leave these all on their default settings and things should work, as long as you have correctly assigned all of your inputs. By default, the Denon has video conversion enabled, and is set up properly for an HDMI connection between receiver and processor. The only reason to change any of the HDMI settings is if you have an atypical setup – like a HDMI/DVI connection to your TV – or if you want to specifically disable the video conversion and processing for some reason. General HDMI settings can be found under MANUAL SETUP > HDMI SETUP. A brief explanation of the options: 1. COLOR SPACE: In general, just leave this on default (YCbCr) unless you are using an HDMI/DVI connection or an HTPC or something where you specifically need RGB color. 2. RGB RANGE: Leave this alone (NORMAL) unless you switch to RGB in COLOR SPACE. 3. AUTO LIPSYNC: Will only do anything if you have a compatible HDMI 1.3 display. You can just leave this on default (ON) unless you have problems. 4. HDMI AUDIO OUT: This selects whether HDMI audio is “stripped” from the signal to be played on your surround sound speakers, or whether you want the HDMI audio passed through to your TV. Leave it on the default setting (AMP) unless you specifically want to use your TV speakers. 5. HDMI CONTROL and 6. POWER OFF CONTROL: These settings, like Auto Lipsync, require compatible HDMI components. For more information, see page 62 of the manual and the HDMI Control question, below. Q. How do I set up the video processing so that everything works right and I can just connect one HDMI cable to the TV? A. In addition to these general settings, you can also set up the specific video processor settings independently by input. This is done in the INPUT SETUP under VIDEO. By default, the Denon AVR 1909 / 2309 is set up to output everything to your TV via an HDMI cable, and will scale all analog sources automatically to the highest HDMI resolution your TV accepts. If all you want to do is plug everything in and run one HDMI cable to your TV, then DON’T CHANGE ANY SETTINGS and it should work fine as long as you have assigned all of your inputs correctly in MANUAL SETUP > ASSIGN. Q. HDMI Control? I can watch TV when the Denon is off? Wow, really?? A. The HDMI Control function allows you to "pass through" the HDMI signal from device to your TV, even when the Denon is in "Standby" mode. You cannot change inputs while utilizing this feature, so make sure to switch the input to the one you want before powering down to Standby. Bugs has yoeman's work getting to the bottom of this feature. For detailed discussion and explanation, please see this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....46#post14443246 4. PLAYBACK AND SURROUND MODES Q. Why isn't the Dolby TrueHD / DTS-MA light turning on when I play a Blu Ray on my PS3?? I set up everything correctly but all is says is "MULTICH IN". What the heck does that mean? A. The PS3 cannot bitstream the new hi-definition audio codecs: Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD and DTS-MA. You will NEVER EVER see the "Dolby TrueHD" or "DTS-MA" light up on the receiver when using a PS3 as your only Blu Ray player. In order to hear these new codecs from the PS3, the PS3 must decode them internally and output them as Multichannel PCM (also sometimes referred to as MPCM or LPCM). Make sure that you change your PS3 audio settings to enable multichannel PCM output (please refer to the PS3's instructions or the PS3 sections of AVSForum for specific questions on the PS3). Please refer to the PS3 FAQ, and scroll down to the “AUDIO SETTINGS” section: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058533 If you have set everything up correctly, the Denon display will light up as "MULTICH IN", indicating that you are receiving multichannel PCM. If you hit "Status" on the Denon, the display should say something like "PCM 48kHz 3/2/.1" indicating that you are receiving 5.1 channel PCM (3 fronts / 2 surrounds / .1 LFE track). You can also check the info on the PS3 to verify that it is outputting the correct soundtrack. Note that sometimes a Blu Ray will default to the standard DD/DTS track, so you might have to manually select the TrueHD/DTS-MA soundtrack. If you want to disable the tone controls and any processing, you can hit the "DIRECT" button on the Denon remote, and the display will now read "MULTICH DIRECT". This is exactly analagous to the "DIRECT" vs "STEREO" modes for listening to 2-channel music, like that from a CD. You can still enable Audyssey EQ'ing when listening in "MULTICH DIRECT" mode, but all other processing options (like tone control) are disabled. For more information, please study the AVR FAQ stickied at the top of the forum, especially the sections on "What do the terms bitstream, PCM and MPCM mean?" and "What do I need to enjoy lossless audio?" Link to AVR FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=968859 Q. Okay, so how do I get the "Dolby TrueHD" light to come on?? I love me some lights! A. You need to buy a Blu Ray player which can "bitstream" the new audio codecs. Please refer to the AVR FAQ for more information: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=968859 Please note that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in sound quality when bitstreaming hi-res audio. The only difference is where the lossless audio is "unpacked." Think of it like a zipped computer file that you email to your friend as an attachment. Regardless of whether you unzip it first and then attach it to the email, or you attach the zipped file and let your friend unzip it, the end result is IDENTICAL. Q. What is the best surround mode to use? A. Ultimately, only you can decide, but here are some pointers. A lot will depend on what type of sound you are receiving, and how many speakers you have (5.1, 7.1, etc.) There is a giant, daunting table describing exactly what surround modes are available depending on the source signal. To check what signal you are receiving, you can hit the “STATUS” button on the receiver to cycle through all the info, or you can go to MENU > INFORMATION > AUDIO INPUT SIGNAL. You can also look at the little lights on the display – the lit up boxes on the left side of the display tell you how many audio channels you are receiving from the input source (for example, if only two boxes on the left are lit up, you are getting a 2-channel source). The boxes on the right of the display tell you how many channels are being output to the speakers. If you have AUTO SURROUND enabled in the setup (see page 33 of the manual), the 1909/789 will memorize your settings and default to the last one you picked when it sees the same source signal again. Note that this is memorized BY INPUT, so for example you can have different “default” settings when listening to 2-channel music on the “CD” input versus 2-channel television on the “TV/CBL” input. To check what your Auto Surround defaults are, hit MENU, go to INFORMATION, and then select AUTO SURROUND MODE (see page 53 of the manual). It will tell you what the default surround mode is for that input, depending on the input signal type. Here is a brief summary of different surround modes. Remember, the important thing to know is what type of signal the Denon is receiving: 1. IF YOU ARE RECEIVING A TWO-CHANNEL SOURCE: To listen to 2-channel as 2-channel, your choices are STEREO, DIRECT, and PURE DIRECT (see pages 45-46 of the manual). Using either DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode will disable all bass management, which means that your front L/R speakers will get a full-range signal, and if the subwoofer is ON it will “double up” the bass from the mains. The only “bass management” available in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT modes is the SUBWOOFER ON/OFF option in the PARAMETERS menu. If you have small front speakers that can’t handle bass, just use the STEREO mode for 2-channel music to preserve all of your bass management settings. Also, please note that if you select PURE DIRECT, the display and video output will be shut off. This is the way it is supposed to function, so don’t freak out if the display shuts off when you hit “PURE DIRECT”. To matrix 2-channel sound to multichannel sound, you have your choice of DOLBY PRO LOGIC II or DTS NEO:6. Hit the “Standard” button to cycle between the two, or you can hit the “Cinema” or “Music” button to directly engage the specific Cinema/Music modes. You also can tweak them independently using the PARAMETERS menu. See page 74 of the manual, as well as the AVR FAQ, for explanations of the differences. Alternately, you can choose one of Denon’s proprietary DSP modes. As with most DSP, pretty much all of these suck, the only possible exception being the 5/7 CHANNEL STEREO mode. This mode will output unprocessed stereo sound equally from all your speakers, and can be a great choice for stereo music, especially if you just want background music at a party or something. 2. IF YOU ARE RECEIVING A MULTICHANNEL DOLBY DIGITAL / DTS SOURCE: If the Input Mode is set to “Auto”, the receiver should default to the correct decoding mode depending on the input signal. If you are running a 7.1 setup, you can matrix 5.1 surround sound up to 7.1 by using DOLBY PRO LOGIC IIx. You can engage this by hitting the “Standard” button on the remote, or by using the “Music” or “Cinema” button as above. The display will read something like “DOLBY DIGITAL + PLIIx CINEMA” or “DTS + PLIIx CINEMA”. 3. IF YOU ARE RECEIVING MULTICHANNEL PCM FROM A BLU RAY: The default setting is MULTI CH IN. If you have a 7.1 setup, it will probably default to “MULTI IN + PLIIx CINEMA”, which will matrix a 5.1 signal to 7.1. You can also engage the DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes when listening to multichannel PCM, which will shut off the tone controls, bass management, and any unneeded processing. If you have small speakers that can’t handle a full-range signal, remember that engaging MULTI CH DIRECT mode will effectively treat all speakers as “large”. Also, remember that “PURE DIRECT” will turn off all video, so do not use this while watching a movie unless you just want to stare at a black screen while listening to the soundtrack! The MULTI CH PURE DIRECT mode is really only useful for listening to multichannel music (SACD or DVD-A) decoded by an external player and sent as multichannel PCM over HDMI.
petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 I had recently had to choose a new AV amp, which will be mainly used as a processor. In the process, I have had to go around and try out a few different brands and I would like to share my experience here as well as my opinion of the Denon. My criteria: Must have pre-outs I also wish to have post-processing such that a lossless 5.1 signal can be processed into 7.1 THX processing would have been nice. I also need a good IPOD dock and in particular, allow video output from my Classic Ipod. Does not have limited color range (see my RXV 663 thread) Internal lossless decoding I had narrowed the potential candidates to: Denon AVR 2309 - made in Japan Marantz SR 5003 / SR 6003 Onkyo SR 706 Yamaha 763 / 863 Pioneer VXS LX 50 IPOD compatibility: The hard bit actually is finding a good Ipod dock. The SR 6003 has a USB port but this does not function with the Ipod. The Onkyo Ipod does not transmit video for my Ipod, and neither does the older YS 10 from Yamaha. Likewise for the Marantz dock. Denon has the most up to date and comprehensive choices. Note the Audessy EQ functions do not work with lossless signals on the Marantz AV amps, there is too little processing power. The Yamaha has limited BTB and WTW video handling. Marantz has a backlit remote control. The 6003 also has 2 HDMI outputs. Onkyo is the only THX (select) equipped amp, and only it and the Denon have the new Dynamic EQ and Dynamic volume which proved to be quite useful. The Pioneer LX 50 has only 2 HDMI outputs and is being replaced. So after some searching and bargaining, I landed the Denon AVR 2309! A review of the Denon 2309: Denon AVR-2309 | Home Cinema Choice So why not ----- Onyko 706 -- great feature set, THX select thrown in, and a better remote which is learning. BUT --- heat issues, and a throttled power output (even though I won't really be using it, I don't like that). The 2309 has more capacitance than the 806. It has been mentioned that the component to HDMI conversion fails when the amp heats up. Ipod dock does not support classic Ipod video out Yamaha 863 --- twin sub output, good sound, excellant Ipod support, decent remote control. But -- well I guess I don't want another yammy, and it cost more plus the inability to process lossless was the clincher. Marantz 6003 -- my fav brand, remote fits my system, GUI menus, classy looks and 2 HDMI out BUT -- again unable to process lossless signals was the loser. No Audessy for lossless signals. Pioneer VXS LX 50 on sale for 999, also decodes everything BUT only 2 HDMI, and not cheap. Expensive IPOD dock. NAD, HK and other brands were not out yet. Useful threads: *Official* Denon AVR 2309CI/889 Thread - AVS Forum Owner manual: http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-2309CI-OM-E_008.pdf Specs: DENON UK | Home Audio Components Usage: The Denon interface is not intuitive, and requires a lot of patience. Going through the menus with a remote where you need to open the hatch is annoying. The Yamaha beats this hands down even though it was not too friendly either, and the Marantz wins on usability. For those who need to see the Hi Def lights shining as proof of their investment, this is the amp for you! There is a big bright blue light, which turns on when the internal lossless decoding is activated and it can be seen quite far away. The manual is reasonable, but not special. Initial impressions: The remote and user interface suck! 6 position Audessy takes time. You can apply PL IIx post-processing to lossless signals. No OSD on HDMI. 2 X 12 000 mFarad caps. (same as the Onkyo 805) Made in Japan There is only 1 remote, not two. Detachable IEC. There is pass through for video 24 fps 1080p. After setting it up thrice, the Audessy based Denon is way better than the Yammy (I had used a RXV 663 which I bought from USA) . But the decoding detail is awesome. Also the gain on the output is higher and allows me to set my power amp to a lower input level. There is unlimited white output, with no BTB or WTW issues. The amp is warm (used as a pro) but not hot. As a processor, it may be bested by the 2809 in terms of chips but it is no slouch with 2 32bit floating chip DSP. There are 3 separate transformers, and lots of other little stuff that help the HT experience. Initial listening impressions are good, with PL IIx and TruHD, DTS-MA or LPCM, there is real air and good surround. Placement of detail is excellent, and there is balance of neutrality without emphasising any part of the sonic spectrum. When you actually get through the poorly thought through menus, it has many options to tweak. I will elaborate more with a full review soon. In case anyone is going to ask me about the audio performance, I have no comments and will not have much for now as: - i do not use it in stereo, only HT - I am not using the internal amps
petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 Specs: High Definition A/V Surround Receiver featuring Dolby TrueHD, dts-HD Master Audio and 1080p HD Video to enhance your level of entertainment pleasure The AVR-2309 monitors the structural elements of sound sources and uses Audyssey Dynamic Volume to adjust volume without sacrificing dynamic range This A/V receiver masterfully controls a variety of media for optimum playback of high-quality audio and video content Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD Master Audio decoders Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ 4 HDMI inputs (Audio and Video) Versatile Entertainment Identical quality and power over all 7 channels, 135W x 7ch (6 ohms) Discrete devices for ultimate performance in each block New 32-bit floating point high precision DSP Direct Mechanical Ground for stable drive Compressed Audio Restorer Denon’s High Picture Quality Circuitry, to enhance enjoyment of existing DVDs -> Faroudja DCDi Video Processing Discrete devices for ultimate HD video performance in each block Digital Media Connectivity (Network Audio/Photo Ready/iPod Audio/Photo and Video playback) Multi-Zone Capability (2 source/2 zone capability with fixed pre amp output) Available in Premium silver and black Audyssey Dynamic Volume, for real-time volume adjustment. Large changes in volume sometimes occur between documentaries where the sound is mainly narrative, and movies which often contain loud sound effects. Viewers often raise the volume for documentaries to hear the narrative more easily, but then turn it down again when a commercial with loud sound effects comes on. They do this numerous times during a program of this type. Audyssey Dynamic Volume constantly monitors the sound sources and adjusts the volume to the optimum level for the particular source being heard without sacrificing dynamic range. The AVR-2309 is also equipped with Audyssey Mult EQ which measures the acoustic characteristics of the room to obtain the optimum acoustic effects; and Audyssey Dynamic EQ which reproduces the high and low range with the optimum acoustic effect during low volume levels. Dynamic Volume combines these two functions to achieve maximum performance.
petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 I have tried calibrating the amp a few times now and can share some tips: - make sure you are in a really quiet room. Close the doors. - Mount the microphone on a tripod. - Make sure it is at the exact level of your EARS - use at least 3 positions - turn down the subwoofer, to 12 o'clock or lower. I use the Audyssey EQ but not the Dynamic volume. You should check the distances and the volume levels.
petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 Please post rather than pm: I have a question regarding the Audyssey calibration. You mentioned turning the sub down why is that? I currently own the Onkyo SR-805 receiver (using as pre-pro) and was told by a HAA calibrator that I should turn it all the way up so the mic can pic it up. My sub is passive so it's powered by an external amp. Is this what you found with the Denon during the Audyssey setup? I was just curious and maybe I'm doing it wrong for my receiver. You need to turn your sub down as mentioned, so there is headroom to adjust. Since you have an externally power sub, then turn down the 'volume' on the amp. Otherwise you will find that the other speaker readings are all "+12" to conpensate.
petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 Set up tips: from the AVS Official Audyssey thread: Audyssey Setup – One Step at a Time The below step-by-step instructions are based on information collected from the Audyssey FAQ, located here: http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html and the AVS Forum Official Audyssey thread, located here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421 Disclaimer: The following procedures may not work in all cases, as there are too many variables to account for in this document. If you feel further assistance is required, please visit the AVS Forum Official Audyssey thread, linked above. I. Room Setup Lower the noise floor of the room (<45dBA) by turning off the HVAC system, projector, etc. II. Microphone Setup A. Use the microphone that came with the unit. 1. Use of a different microphone will cause incorrect frequency response measurements because of different internal calibration. B. If you feel the urge to use another microphone, re-read section A. C. Mount the microphone on a tripod. D. Point the microphone at the ceiling. E. Place the microphone at ear height when seated. F. If the seat back is higher than your head, ensure the microphone is above the seat back. 1. If the seat back is a few inches behind the microphone, this will cause additional reflections. G. Place the microphone in the primary listening position for the first measurement. 1. Audyssey uses this measurement to set the speaker distances and levels, so the microphone should be placed in the seating position used the most. III. Subwoofer Setup A. Determine the optimal placement of the subwoofer within your room using common accepted practices. (location, location, location) 1. Here are some useful references for subwoofer setup: a. Audioholics subwoofer placement article: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good...for-bass-part-1 b. Harman multiple subwoofer placement white paper: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf B. Disable the Low-Pass Filter (LPF) on the subwoofer, if allowed. 1. Disabling the LPF will result in more accurate subwoofer distance measurements. 2. If the LPF cannot be disabled, set it to the highest frequency allowed. C. Ensure the subwoofer(s) are at least 3 – 5 inches (7 – 13 cm) from the wall. 1. Reverberating walls may result in inaccurate subwoofer distance measurements. D. Set the subwoofer polarization (0 or 180 degrees) using common accepted practices. 1. If you have two subwoofers, ensure their polarization settings are the same. E. If the subwoofer has a phase control (in addition to the polarization control), set it at “0” 1. Phase controls on subwoofers apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency independent. So, it is best to just leave them at “0”. F. If the sub has an EQ system, use it to tame large peaks before calibrating with Audyssey. 1. Narrow peaks or dips in the response below 100 Hz that are 1/3 or 1/6 of an octave wide can be improved—but not eliminated—by Audyssey Mult EQ XT. a. In these situations, the built-in subwoofer EQ systems might be useful. 2. Velodyne’s SMS and JL Audio’s ARO are two examples of EQ systems. G. Calibrate the subwoofer volume 1. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed. a. Please note this “starting point” may not work with all subwoofers. 2. Place the microphone at the primary listening position (the center of the listening area) and run through the calibration process for the first measurement—until all speakers have been measured once. 3. After the first measurement process is complete, select "Calculate", then "Save" or "Store", then go to "Check Parameters". a. Audyssey will calculate the speaker distances and trim levels from this first measurement. b. Each manufacturer has a slightly different interface, so the terminology may not exactly match. 4. Check the subwoofer trim levels in the receiver / processor menu. a. If the subwoofers trim level is at the maximum limit of the cut or boost adjustment range allowed, you need to adjust the volume control on the subwoofer and repeat step #2. Specific instructions will follow. b. For example, Denon receivers have a trim adjustment range from -12dB to +12dB. c. Trim adjustments are a tool used to achieve the goal of producing a specific SPL from each speaker / subwoofer when the system is played at reference level. 5. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum boost, turn up the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2 6. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum cut, turn down the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2 7. A suggestion for tweakers is to set the subwoofer trim level in the range of ±3 dB. a. This is only a suggestion for the tweaker who likes to play around. b. Audyssey’s position is to perform steps 4 to 6 above. Note: This process is for checking the trim levels only. After you have completed the subwoofer setup, be sure to start the measurement process over, following the guidance in section V to use all six or eight measurement positions available. IV. Dual mono (LFE) Subwoofer Setup A. Place the subwoofers symmetrically within the room, if at all possible. B. Place the subwoofers at identical distances from the primary listening position, if at all possible. 1. When two subwoofers are driven as one unit, proper time alignment is critical. 2. The two subwoofers will not be properly time aligned unless they have the same physical distance from the primary listening position. 3. Adjusting the physical distance of the two subs effectively adjusts their time delay. C. The above advice applies only to sealed rectangular rooms without any openings. D. As an alternative to locating the subs at equal distances from the main listening position, you may insert an electronic device between the receiver / processor and the nearest subwoofer. 1. This device should introduce a time delay such that its output sound reaches the main listening position at the same time as the farthest subwoofer. E. Attempt to match the output level of both subwoofers. 1. Play the receiver / processor internal LFE test tone while adjusting the volume control on the subwoofer. 2. Turn on one subwoofer and adjust the output level using an SPL meter to 80 decibels. a. If you do not have an SPL meter, adjust the level by ear. 3. Turn off the first subwoofer, turn on the second subwoofer, and repeat the procedure. 4. Turn on both subwoofers and calibrate with Audyssey. F. Follow the steps in subwoofer setup (above) for each subwoofer. V. Microphone Placement (Measurement Positions) Use the maximum amount of measurement positions allowed by the Audyssey version. If you are using MultEQ or MultEQ XT you should use all six or eight measurement positions available. [*]Avoid taking measurements too far off to the side and/or outside the front Left and Right loudspeakers, even if seats are located there. Frequency response in these locations will exhibit reduced high frequencies. Audyssey would adjust the room correction filters according to this measured response, resulting in unnecessary compensation. [*]Avoid taking measurements too close to the back wall, even if the only seating is located there. Move the microphone at least 1 foot (30 cm) from the back wall before measuring. [*]Audyssey uses the first measurement point to calculate the distances of each speaker and subwoofer. Distance measurements are really time measurements that ensure temporal coherence. It is a critical part of calibration because—without it—you have frequencies arriving at different times: This is called non-constant group delay, and is a form of distortion. The distances are calculated so the sounds from all speakers and subwoofers arrive at the first measurement position at the same time. [*]When calibrating only a primary listening position, use the following placement methodology: The first microphone position (#1) must always be in the center of the listening area. For measurement #2, move the microphone two feet (60cm) to the left of position #1. For measurement #3, move the microphone two feet (60cm) to the right of position #1 For measurement #4, move the microphone two feet (60cm) forward of position #1. For measurement #5, move the microphone two feet (60cm) forward of position #2. For measurement #6, move the microphone two feet (60cm) forward of position #3. For measurement #7, move the microphone one foot (30cm) to the left of position #1, and one foot (30cm) forward of the line formed by measurements #1, #2, and #3. For measurement #8, move the microphone one foot (30cm) to the right of position #1, and one foot (30cm) forward of the line formed by measurements #1, #2, and #3. [*]Here is a visualization of eight measurements surrounding the primary listening position. The first microphone position (#1) is where the silhouette of the head is located. After the first measurement, the order in which you make the measurements does not matter. The order in the steps above only serves to ensure each location is measured. The below diagram shows the optimum microphone placement for a typical living room. In general, Audyssey does not recommend putting the microphone in "every seat", except in a dedicated theater with seat rows. In typical living rooms, placing the microphone in every seat will not give you the best results because the seats can be off axis or close to the wall. Audyssey recommends following a pattern close to what is in the diagram even if you only have one listening position. The most common problem with EQ systems is that they base their data collection on a single point in the room and that usually results in very poor performance. VI. During Calibration Do not make any sudden noises during the “chirp” measurements. Audyssey measures for a few milliseconds (ms) after each “chirp” is finished, but then has to wait for the DSP to calculate, so the microphone is not active until a few ms before the next set of chirps. [*]Do not stand in between the speaker and the microphone or anywhere that the sound is either reflected off of you or absorbed by you. 1. The natural room acoustics must not be substantially affected. Be prepared for the “chirp” measurements, as they are quite loud, and can startle you. If a phase warning is shown, check the speaker wiring, and press “Skip” to continue with the calibration. VII. After Calibration Raise the speaker crossover settings, if desired. 1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey. 2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended. a. Audyssey will not provide correction to the satellite speakers lower than the frequency it measures as the -3 dB point. 3. Setting the speakers to “Small” with a 60 Hz – 80 Hz crossover is a good starting point, assuming the calibrated crossover setting is 60 Hz or lower. 4. For additional details about the speaker setting process, see “Note 1” below. Raise the low-pass filter setting (usually incorrectly identified as a crossover) of the LFE subwoofer in the receiver / processor to 120Hz, if allowed. If the satellite speaker distance settings (excluding the subwoofer) were not measured accurately, and are markedly different from what you get with a tape measure, start all over. 1. Incorrect distance measurements for the satellite speakers indicate a procedural error, and the associated EQ results are likely to be poor. Do not change the distance setting of the subwoofer. 1. Inaccurate subwoofer distance settings are the result of measured delays between the time when the receiver outputs the test tone and it is received at the microphone. a. Any filters and/or active circuitry in subwoofers can delay this signal. b. Audyssey simply measures the time delay and compensates for differences in the arrival time of sound from the various speakers and the subwoofer. It is best to compensate for these differences regardless of why they occur. 2. The subwoofer / satellite speaker time alignment blend is based on this measurement. 3. Inaccurate subwoofer distance measurements usually occur when the subwoofer’s Low-Pass Filter (LPF) is not disabled. a. The LPF, by nature of its design, introduces additional delay to the signal; Audyssey detects and corrects for this delay. Disable any Night Modes, DRC (Dynamic Range Compression), and D. Comp (Dynamic Compression) in the receiver / processor as well as the DVD / BD player. If these features are not disabled, they could possibly cause adverse interaction with Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. You may need to temporarily turn off MultEQ to access these parameters in your receiver / processor. You may also need to select a specific soundtrack type before a given parameter will appear in the menu for adjustment; check the manual to be certain. [*]If your receiver / processor has the THX Loudness Plus feature, turn it off if you plan to use Dynamic Volume. [*]Select one of the target curves created by Audyssey. 1. In a THX system, the “Flat” curve should be used when THX post-processing is on, and the “Reference” curve should be used when THX post-processing is off. 2. In other systems, the “Audyssey” curve should be used for listening to movies, and the “Flat” curve should be used for listening to music. If desired, trim adjustments can be made in the receiver / processor, so that all speakers measure at 75 dB with an SPL meter (set at “C” and “Slow”) using the internal test tones. See “Note 2” below. 1. Audyssey will monitor these changes. 2. The changes are monitored so that Audyssey and its features (Room correction curves, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume, etc.) work as designed. 3. If you were to make changes to the settings on a subwoofer, Audyssey would have no knowledge of this, and those features would not operate as designed. Note 1: Audyssey does not set the crossovers; it simply measures the -3dB frequency point of each speaker. This information is passed to the receiver / processor for calculation of the speaker settings and crossover points, if applicable. Unfortunately, Audyssey does not report the -3dB frequency point measured for each speaker. The only information available to you is whether or not the speaker was designated “Large” or “Small”, and any crossover point selected for “Small” speakers. Receiver / processor manufacturers use a specific Frequency Decision Point (FDP) to classify speakers as “Large” (full-range) or “Small” (less than full-range). The selection of the FDP varies among manufacturers, and may be 40 Hz, 80 Hz, or another frequency. If the -3 dB frequency measured by Audyssey is below the FDP, the speaker is classified as “Large’. If the -3 dB frequency measured by Audyssey is above the FDP, the speaker is classified as “Small”, and a crossover frequency is selected. Each receiver / processor has various crossover points from which to choose. Typically, the first crossover setting above the -3 dB point measured by Audyssey is chosen. For example: If your receiver has crossover settings of 40, 60, 80, 100 and 120 Hz, and the speaker is set to “Small” with an 80 Hz crossover, that is an indication the - 3dB point is somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz. Note 2: Before adjusting the trim settings, please understand that producing a calibrated setting other than 75 dB SPL results in reference level being achieved with the master volume set to something other than “0”. Further, Audyssey microphones are specified with a ± 2 dB maximum sensitivity tolerance. So, in the worst case scenario, the Audyssey microphone would be 2 dB “off”, which is more accurate than most popular consumer-level SPL meters. Consumer-level SPL meters are usually very inaccurate when measuring subwoofers; you have been warned.
petetherock Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 I have done at least 5 rounds of calibration, and Auddyssey is pretty accuate with the distances, but tends to set the rear channel levels a bit too high so it is best to use a SPL meter to check after the setup is done. Do put the microphone as close to your real listening postions as possible and avoid placing it too close to one side or to a single speaker. Use as many positions as your system allows.
petetherock Posted November 14, 2008 Author Posted November 14, 2008 For all potential buyers, do yourself a favor by having a read of the user manual, which is what I did prior to my purchase. It will really help you decide if the feature set is good enough and if the user interface suits you. I actually dislike the Denon interface, which is another reason why I have not owned one before. Also the Dynamic EQ and volume is a paid upgrade for xxx8 models like the 3808 Cheers
petetherock Posted November 15, 2008 Author Posted November 15, 2008 URL for the manual (USA model) http://usa.denon.com/AVR-2309CI-OM-E_008.pdf
petetherock Posted November 18, 2008 Author Posted November 18, 2008 I just sold this.... the buying adventure continues!
tb1231503560936 Posted November 18, 2008 Posted November 18, 2008 I just sold this.... the buying adventure continues! pete, so why did you sell it, was it the interface, what next? what did you actually think of it? I saw plenty of cut and paste of specs and info from the AVS forum, but can you please give a quick summary on your impressions of feature set, audio and video quality etc Assuming someone likes the interface, is a budget processor with a right feature set the way to go hooked up with a quality power amp, or are you still better off buying a higher quality processor in the first place? cheers TB
petetherock Posted November 18, 2008 Author Posted November 18, 2008 I got the 2809 for SING 1500 pre tax I am using it for its processor, so I have no comments on the music qualities. IMO the Denons make good 'brains' and will partner a decent power amp well. But for a little more, I get a better remote and a higher level DSP and Audyssey. Stay tuned for it.
petetherock Posted November 19, 2008 Author Posted November 19, 2008 Had a chance to try some old familar hits with the Denon AVR 2809 last night. IMO Audyssey is a real boon, and will help, with the caveats that you still need good speaker placement and room treatment. A DVD version of Band Of Brothers came alive and there was so much detail coming from all the channels. Placement of effects was stable and there was a good imagery created which was convincing and places you in the action. Dynamic EQ works well esp since I really wish to keep all my hearing intact. The subwoofers still get a good workout, and yet dialogue is not overwhelmed. Putting Indy 4 into my PS 3 was a totally higher level of HT enjoyment. First the THX trailer was awesome, with both subs firing, the room was physically elevated off the floor and yet the subtle bits of sound effects were still distinct and even in a busy action scene, the effects were still clear, clean and easy to follow. Of course, having good speakers and a powerful power amp helps. (I am not using the internal amps). Adding DPL IIx adds space and more dimension to the soundscape, but do not overpower the front channels with too much SPLs from the rear channels. All in all, a worthy upgrade to the Yam 663.
com59841503560232 Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 (edited) pete, I agree with your opinion of the 2309 remote it looks like crap, but apart from that is the 2809 that much better if the 2309 is used with a harmony remote and a theatron 7. I can get a 2309 here for about 1400 Edited November 24, 2008 by com5984
petetherock Posted November 24, 2008 Author Posted November 24, 2008 You need to decide for yourself if the Audyssey XT, the extra power and better 32 bit DSP chip and the remote is worth the $500 difference. I also got an Ipod dock thrown in, so the difference was about $350 SING, which to me was fine. pete, I agree with your opinion of the 2309 remote it looks like crap, but apart from that is the 2809 that much better if the 2309 is used with a harmony remote and a theatron 7. I can get a 2309 here for about 1400
petetherock Posted December 1, 2008 Author Posted December 1, 2008 I should report that both the 2309 and 2809 have no issues with the Pan Labyrinth Hd Dvd Dts-ma 7.1, and there are no reports of the DTS bomb either. All good so far.
petetherock Posted December 5, 2008 Author Posted December 5, 2008 A review of the US model of this amp - no pre-outs http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/processor-a...v-receiver.html Conclusions The AVR-2309CI comes in at an MSRP of USD $849. This puts it squarely in the midrange tier of the receiver market. There are definitely a plethora of features to like on this model that, given the price point, make this a very attractive option. The audio performance is top notch, as I have now come to expect from a Denon product. The list of supported surround codecs is comprehensive, and should provide everything needed to enjoy the latest Blu-Ray discs. The Audyssey implementation is excellent, and the latest features included really are great value adds. The video scaling is limited in its implementation, and will only help someone who is primarily using component video connections for their sources. If you have moved to mostly HDMI as I have, the receiver’s video functionality is basically as an HDMI switcher/repeater. Still, the performance of said scaling when using component connections is quite good, and if you have an outboard video processor, then this is a non-issue. Overall, Denon has a fine product in the AVR-2309CI. If this receiver looks to be in your price range, definitely give it a listen. You just might take one home with you on the spot.
petetherock Posted December 11, 2008 Author Posted December 11, 2008 Been asked this a few times so these links might help: THX Loudness vs Audyssey: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1090366 Processing power is the key, the jump from the 2309/1909 to the 2809 and up is the ability to process all the EQ and DSP on the fly and that is one reason why I swopped the 2309 to the 2809.
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