Request Opinions: Projectors For Everyday Use ?

[Drizt]

Hi Guys,

Im requesting some opinions and valuable experiences with using a projector as the only display you have. Using it for everyday use in a non-totally light controlled room. Is it a waste of time for anything other than night time?

Im tossing up whether or not to buy a Panasonic 850 50" plasma or getting the Sony WH-10 SXRD projector (online price)

Viewing distance will be around 3m+ and I know that 50" plasma is a bit small at that distance, but price is a limiting factor for us right now.

I would prefer to get the projector, but im worry that it will be a waste of time due to the room not being totally light controlled and that it will be our only display...

What are your thoughts?

P.S. I've had a number of problems trying to find a suitable display.

1). I can NOT put up with DLP rainbows.

2). I could see phospher lag (similar to rainbows) with the Samsung and Pioneer (Kuro 1) plasma's

3). Current LCD's black levels or lack there of annoy me to much (when viewing in the dark at night)

4). The new LED backlight LCD's look promising but are too expensive currently (52")

[betty boop]

Hi Guys,

Im requesting some opinions and valuable experiences with using a projector as the only display you have. Using it for everyday use in a non-totally light controlled room. Is it a waste of time for anything other than night time?

Im tossing up whether or not to buy a Panasonic 850 50" plasma or getting the Sony WH-10 SXRD projector (online price)

Viewing distance will be around 3m+ and I know that 50" plasma is a bit small at that distance, but price is a limiting factor for us right now.

I would prefer to get the projector, but im worry that it will be a waste of time due to the room not being totally light controlled and that it will be our only display...

What are your thoughts?

P.S. I've had a number of problems trying to find a suitable display.

1). I can NOT put up with DLP rainbows.

2). I could see phospher lag (similar to rainbows) with the Samsung and Pioneer (Kuro 1) plasma's

3). Current LCD's black levels or lack there of annoy me to much (when viewing in the dark at night)

4). The new LED backlight LCD's look promising but are too expensive currently (52")

hi drizt, I too have a non light controlled room and face with similar challenges. well with all curtains drawn I get down to single figure measurements on light levels. I have some other mounting limitations negating certain projectors, but overall in all my invesitgating including ambient light measurements with DLPs and the jvc, I found unless going for a light cannon like the infocus in82 dlp all else are sort of wasted in a scenario like that in day time non light controlled setup.

the sxrd would be like the jvc which gets washout very easily unless light controlled and with not that many lumens to work with I dont think would be ideal in a non light controlled environment.

my suggestion is either forget about a pj and go plasma maybe larger if budget allows.

or get one only for night viewing ( keep in mind in summer it gets dark pretty late !

see if you can indeed light control ?

ps I agree with you on LCD panels, but check out the sharp panels, expensive but pretty good I reckon.

ps why the 850 pana ? the 800 I've seen side by side with the 850 and 508 pio and nothing between them

[Drizt]

ps why the 850 pana ? the 800 I've seen side by side with the 850 and 508 pio and nothing between them

Thanks Al. Simply because the price diff (after negotiation) between the 800 and 850 is negligible. Call me shallow but Id (EDIT: Changed always to mostly) mostly pick the supposedly higher model if the price is negligible and I can't definitely say that the supposedly lower model is better. Even if they are exactly the same, id still probably go the model up.. shrugs just me.

Ive looked at all of the LCDs and the samsungs are the best to my eyes, Sony comes second then everything else is not up to scratch to my eyes. Yet the black levels are not good enough in dark rooms (night time) which is irritating. If you don't watch in the dark like I do I think the samsung LCD's are exception performance for the dollar.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Drizt

[Big Lunt]

Hi Guys,

Im requesting some opinions and valuable experiences with using a projector as the only display you have. Using it for everyday use in a non-totally light controlled room. Is it a waste of time for anything other than night time?

Im tossing up whether or not to buy a Panasonic 850 50" plasma or getting the Sony WH-10 SXRD projector (online price)

Viewing distance will be around 3m+ and I know that 50" plasma is a bit small at that distance, but price is a limiting factor for us right now.

I would prefer to get the projector, but im worry that it will be a waste of time due to the room not being totally light controlled and that it will be our only display...

What are your thoughts?

P.S. I've had a number of problems trying to find a suitable display.

1). I can NOT put up with DLP rainbows.

2). I could see phospher lag (similar to rainbows) with the Samsung and Pioneer (Kuro 1) plasma's

3). Current LCD's black levels or lack there of annoy me to much (when viewing in the dark at night)

4). The new LED backlight LCD's look promising but are too expensive currently (52")

Hate to break it to you but most display technology has some something in regards to picture quality......if you keep looking for faults you will always find it.

Phospher lag.........I am laughing my head off sorry

[MrGadget]

How about getting a cheaper 50" (panasonic HD, not a Full HD) and a projector for night time movie viewing? Not sure what the current prices are for non full HD 50" plasmas.

Edited October 18, 2008 by MrGadget

[fatang]

How about getting a cheaper 50" (panasonic HD, not a Full HD) and a projector for night time movie viewing? Not sure what the current non full HD 50" plasmas are.

This would be the best option in my opinion (also the more expensive).

Fatang

[yamapro]

Thanks Al. Simply because the price diff (after negotiation) between the 800 and 850 is negligible. Call me shallow but Id (EDIT: Changed always to mostly) mostly pick the supposedly higher model if the price is negligible and I can't definitely say that the supposedly lower model is better. Even if they are exactly the same, id still probably go the model up.. shrugs just me.

Ive looked at all of the LCDs and the samsungs are the best to my eyes, Sony comes second then everything else is not up to scratch to my eyes. Yet the black levels are not good enough in dark rooms (night time) which is irritating. If you don't watch in the dark like I do I think the samsung LCD's are exception performance for the dollar.

Hi Drizt,

I have to agree with you that the Samsungs are where it's at bang for buck wise wrt lcd displays

FWIW i have lived with a PJ as my primary display before and have a friend who is doing this currently and in all honesty i wouldn't recommend it to the masses. If LCD contrast levels typically annoy you and you have no real light control in your room a PJ is going to really disappoint you with daytime viewing...

The two biggest challenges in a non light controlled room (IMHO) are brightness and contrast... Brightness can be somewhat addressed by buying a 'light cannon' type projector (I don't believe the Sony is your friend in this regard) but contrast is limited by the ambient light ion your room... at the end of the day you will never get inky blacks or even anything closer than bright grey with ambient light issues. especially if using a white screen.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious here but if you look at your screen (whether it's a painted wall, high gain white or whatever) with no image at typical ambient lighting then that is as black as your image will be IME this is the biggest problem with a Projector as an all round solution, it is very difficult to get decent viewing through the 'daytime' especially if it is in a lounge or other type of multi purpose room...

A high contrast grey screen can be a big help with contrast where ambient light is an issue but can really rob lumens and will still not result in the black levels you seem to crave...

At the end of the day, in your circumstance I would be looking for a Samsung 6 series LCD or even a Sony XBR Bravia (currently on runout at great prices) for daytime viewing and a PJ for the big screen experience come movie night and the like... Of course this option tends to be the least budget friendly

[Drizt]

Hi Drizt,

I have to agree with you that the Samsungs are where it's at bang for buck wise wrt lcd displays

FWIW i have lived with a PJ as my primary display before and have a friend who is doing this currently and in all honesty i wouldn't recommend it to the masses. If LCD contrast levels typically annoy you and you have no real light control in your room a PJ is going to really disappoint you with daytime viewing...

The two biggest challenges in a non light controlled room (IMHO) are brightness and contrast... Brightness can be somewhat addressed by buying a 'light cannon' type projector (I don't believe the Sony is your friend in this regard) but contrast is limited by the ambient light ion your room... at the end of the day you will never get inky blacks or even anything closer than bright grey with ambient light issues. especially if using a white screen.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious here but if you look at your screen (whether it's a painted wall, high gain white or whatever) with no image at typical ambient lighting then that is as black as your image will be IME this is the biggest problem with a Projector as an all round solution, it is very difficult to get decent viewing through the 'daytime' especially if it is in a lounge or other type of multi purpose room...

A high contrast grey screen can be a big help with contrast where ambient light is an issue but can really rob lumens and will still not result in the black levels you seem to crave...

At the end of the day, in your circumstance I would be looking for a Samsung 6 series LCD or even a Sony XBR Bravia (currently on runout at great prices) for daytime viewing and a PJ for the big screen experience come movie night and the like... Of course this option tends to be the least budget friendly

Thanks mate thats actually very helpful. Cheers.

[Drizt]

How about getting a cheaper 50" (panasonic HD, not a Full HD) and a projector for night time movie viewing? Not sure what the current prices are for non full HD 50" plasmas.

This would be the best option in my opinion (also the more expensive).

Fatang

Probably the best way, but unfortunately $$$ won't stretch that far.

[fatang]

Hi Dritz

I have a HTPC (with TV tuner card) and a 26inch LCD monitor for general and daytime viewing. I also have a projector (an ailing Panna AE700 on its last legs - read overdue to be put down ) for evening TV and movies. This works well for us, but I guess, is still maybe a tad expensive. You have to decide where your own priorities lie in relation to cost. But, I have to say that nothing beats watching a good movie better than a projector ( well maybe the cinema - but you have to put up with other people talking and russeling chip bags). Good luck in the quest.

BTW, as somebody else said, no technology is perfect.

Fatang

Probably the best way, but unfortunately $$$ won't stretch that far.

[MACCA350]

P.S. I've had a number of problems trying to find a suitable display.

1). I can NOT put up with DLP rainbows.

2). I could see phospher lag (similar to rainbows) with the Samsung and Pioneer (Kuro 1) plasma's

3). Current LCD's black levels or lack there of annoy me to much (when viewing in the dark at night)

4). The new LED backlight LCD's look promising but are too expensive currently (52")

So you've narrowed it down to................nothing

cheers

[MACCA350]

Hi Dritz

I have a HTPC (with TV tuner card) and a 26inch LCD monitor for general and daytime viewing. I also have a projector (an ailing Panna AE700 on its last legs - read overdue to be put down ) for evening TV and movies. This works well for us, but I guess, is still maybe a tad expensive. You have to decide where your own priorities lie in relation to cost. But, I have to say that nothing beats watching a good movie better than a projector ( well maybe the cinema - but you have to put up with other people talking and russeling chip bags). Good luck in the quest.

BTW, as somebody else said, no technology is perfect.

Fatang

A few words of wisdom there Fatang.

My priority has always been movies viewed at night, so the projector has priority and I made do with a $250 68cm Magnavox(which replaced a 59cm Teac) for everyday use. That's how it was for years until yesterday I picked up a new 32" Panasonic TX-32LZD800A to replace the CRT. Does a great job and does everything I need

32" for everyday...........100" for movie time

cheers

[Drizt]

So you've narrowed it down to................nothing

cheers

hehe.. nah. The panasonic plasmas seem good. Im going to take the james bond blu ray disk down to test the phosper lag the on black and white scenes. The kuro 1 had horrendous phosper lag for both my wife and I when we tested that movie (50"). A mates Samsung 42" plasma gives me the same effect but its not a severe. I saw green yellow and tinges of red in the black and white scenes, the wife saw yellow and green. We both found it way to irritating to proceed with the purchase at the time. If the panasonics pass that test, the i think its systems go.

[Drizt]

A few words of wisdom there Fatang.

My priority has always been movies viewed at night, so the projector has priority and I made do with a $250 68cm Magnavox(which replaced a 59cm Teac) for everyday use. That's how it was for years until yesterday I picked up a new 32" Panasonic TX-32LZD800A to replace the CRT. Does a great job and does everything I need

32" for everyday...........100" for movie time

cheers

Yeah seems like the go.

I think Ill just get a plasma for now, and in 18 months time pick up a projector. Hopefully the LED light instead of a globe ones sound promising.

[MACCA350]

Just be careful, I was in at JB comparing a few screens and there was ringing(looked like about a 5 pixel miss convergence, or green hue outlining objects). I asked what the source was and he mentioned it was Blu-ray but they were running component split to all the displays. I don't know how anyone could thoroughly evaluate a displays performance under those conditions. I guess those that have theirs set up with HDMI split to all displays won't have this issue.

So maybe request they hook up a separate player to the display you are evaluating or make sure whatever they are using is not impacting the image in itself so you know you are seeing issues with the display itself and issues with their dodgy setup.

cheers

[Drizt]

Just be careful, I was in at JB comparing a few screens and there was ringing(looked like about a 5 pixel miss convergence, or green hue outlining objects). I asked what the source was and he mentioned it was Blu-ray but they were running component split to all the displays. I don't know how anyone could thoroughly evaluate a displays performance under those conditions. I guess those that have theirs set up with HDMI split to all displays won't have this issue.

So maybe request they hook up a separate player to the display you are evaluating or make sure whatever they are using is not impacting the image in itself so you know you are seeing issues with the display itself and issues with their dodgy setup.

cheers

Yeah true. They are never set up all that well at the box movers like JB. The issue I saw was during movement, and not obvious all the time. Was also present on the unit hooked up by HDMI. But your right, ill make sure its hooked up right when I take in some test disks.

Cheers.

[MrGadget]

Probably the best way, but unfortunately $$$ won't stretch that far.

I know what I mean. I'm stuck with a 32" CRT at 3.5m viewing distance, great tv but damn it's small by todays standards. When your parents have a bigger tv than you, you know somethings not right with the world )

[yamapro]

I know what I mean. I'm stuck with a 32" CRT at 3.5m viewing distance, great tv but damn it's small by todays standards. When your parents have a bigger tv than you, you know somethings not right with the world )

^^ That depends very much on ones parents methinks

[betty boop]

I know what I mean. I'm stuck with a 32" CRT at 3.5m viewing distance, great tv but damn it's small by todays standards. When your parents have a bigger tv than you, you know somethings not right with the world )

hi mrG if coming off a 32" crt I can tell you even a 42" or 50" will be quite a step up. and yeah sure at 3.5m your probably not going to resolve the fullest of detail of 1080 as you would with a pj, but there'll still be much to enjoy with hdtv and blu-ray on the smaller screen

myself I want to see what the newer series 9 pio kuros are like. I know theyre quite a hike up in price but something hopefully keep for quite a while. other thing is though might be some difference between these in comparison in isolation at home all these are beaut screens on their own. I know my 2 year old hitachi would probably get slaughtered in comparison but still puts out some beaut pics if viewing in isolation. laws of diminishing returns swing in I think when starting to spend up with differences between panels being marginal. what makes the pana full hd 50" at around $2.5k such good buys

ps drizt, if considering pjs in a ambient light setup perhaps consider getting a lux meter from dse it costs abotu the same as a spl meter, so can get a feel for light levels in your room. then take that to demoes of pjs, use the down lights they usually have in demo rooms to dial up the equivalent lux level you measured in your setup with ambient light. will give you a feel for whether the said pjs will provide a setup satisfactory to your needs.

[MrGadget]

hi mrG if coming off a 32" crt I can tell you even a 42" or 50" will be quite a step up. and yeah sure at 3.5m your probably not going to resolve the fullest of detail of 1080 as you would with a pj, but there'll still be much to enjoy with hdtv and blu-ray on the smaller screen

myself I want to see what the newer series 9 pio kuros are like. I know theyre quite a hike up in price but something hopefully keep for quite a while. other thing is though might be some difference between these in comparison in isolation at home all these are beaut screens on their own. I know my 2 year old hitachi would probably get slaughtered in comparison but still puts out some beaut pics if viewing in isolation. laws of diminishing returns swing in I think when starting to spend up with differences between panels being marginal. what makes the pana full hd 50" at around $2.5k such good buys

ps drizt, if considering pjs in a ambient light setup perhaps consider getting a lux meter from dse it costs abotu the same as a spl meter, so can get a feel for light levels in your room. then take that to demoes of pjs, use the down lights they usually have in demo rooms to dial up the equivalent lux level you measured in your setup with ambient light. will give you a feel for whether the said pjs will provide a setup satisfactory to your needs.

Yeah 50" would probably be ok and i'm sure it will have that wow factor until I get used to the size. There is no denying that the price is very attractive, my parents paid $2600 for it about a month ago. I saw the 58" version at Myer (not even turned on) and it is noticeably larger than the 50". I think I would be much happier with a 58" but unless prices of these come crashing down the 50" is definetly the sweet spot at the moment for pricing. I have nowhere to put my CRT tv if I get a plasma, I'll get nothing for it if i sell it. I'd probably give it to a family member/friend if they had a spare room to put it in.

With projectors, it is big more difficult to get one from scratch because of the additional accessories needed (projector mount/stand, screen, cabling, installation etc), nothing can beat it for that real movie experience though. Also in my room I would need a pull down screen and I know that these eventually get ripples in them from the constant up/down pulling of the screen.

From what I can see of the current plasmas, they finally seem to put out a very good picture, one that I would be happy with.

We'll see what happens in the next few months.

Edited October 19, 2008 by MrGadget

[norpus]

Drizt

I think using a pj in a non-light controlled environment is a no-no for someone like yourself who is critical of PQ

Light destroys contrast ratio - so you may as well get a low spec pj from a PQ pov as you won't see the benefits of a high contrast ratio machine.

The only way I could see this non light controlled situation working is with a screen tolerant to sideways light, like the Dalite Hi Power.

You would also need to mount this close to eye level, as it is retroflective.

I have now seen this screen and it is quite spectacular and quite directional (meaning light from other directions- windows/walls do not affect it much). You do not need a light cannon with it.

The advice from others above of direct view small screen for daytime viewing and pj for movies is valid and is what I do. I also subscribe that a pj is not ideal for watching all things - I prefer adverts and news at <<100". Certainly movies and HD sport on 'small' screens eg 50" and below do not have the immersive effect for me, so pj is certainly preferred there

Edited October 20, 2008 by norpus

[norpus]

Drizt, try this guide

http://www.dalite.com/education/guide.php?page=10

Here was my guess for your situation:

Criteria #1 - Projection Method

Video Technology

LCD, DLP, D-ILA, LCOS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criteria #2 - Ambient Light Conditions

Part A

Ambient Light IS NOT Controllable

Part B (if ambiant light IS NOT controllable)

Uncontrollable Light DOES Affect Screen Image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criteria #3 - Display Brightness

Your display has LESS THAN 25 foot-lamberts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criteria #4 - Room Configuration

Audience members will be seated LESS THAN 30° from the center of the screen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criteria #5 - Projected Image Make-Up

Conventional Video Images

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criteria #6 - Projector Placement

Projector and audience ARE on the same side of normal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criteria #7 - Screen Maintenance

Screen surface IS NOT subject to abuse or constant handling

After entering above info, Answer is

High Power

A technological breakthrough, providing the reflectivity and optical characteristics of a traditional glass beaded surface with the ability to clean the surface when necessary. Its smooth textured surface provides the highest gain of all front projection screen surfaces with no resolution loss. The moderate viewing angle and its ability to reflect light back along the projection axis make this surface the best choice for situations where there is a moderate amount of ambient light and the projector is placed on a table-top or in the same horizontal viewing plane as the audience. Flame retardant and mildew resistant. Viewing Angle: 30° Gain: 2.8

I'm looking at this screen for myself also fyi

Also fyi, I used to own a Dalite High contrast Cinema vision screen (fixed 4:3 100") so I know the quality. This 'gray screen' helped a little with ambient light but not enough for your situation

Edited October 20, 2008 by norpus

[tonyjg]

Hi Guys,

Im requesting some opinions and valuable experiences with using a projector as the only display you have. Using it for everyday use in a non-totally light controlled room. Is it a waste of time for anything other than night time?

IMO - yes.

Running a Pana AE900 at the moment - and whilst the picture is FANTASTIC in the darken room (anytime after 8.00pm at the moment) - any daytime projector is a waste of time (and lamptime)

Im tossing up whether or not to buy a Panasonic 850 50" plasma or getting the Sony WH-10 SXRD projector (online price)

Viewing distance will be around 3m+ and I know that 50" plasma is a bit small at that distance, but price is a limiting factor for us right now.

you're viewing distance of 3+ mtres really would IMO be a 'waste' for a projector. You really need a large room to appreciate the size of the projected image. Pushing a 100in image from about 5mtres (limitations are the two lights on the wall - so the image is squeezed in btw them !!

I would prefer to get the projector, but im worry that it will be a waste of time due to the room not being totally light controlled and that it will be our only display...

What are your thoughts?

there's NO WAY I use the projector as my own source : its used mainly for MOVIES or SPORTING EVENTS (when the mates are around to watch the footy finals). Normal TV projection doesn't come across too well IMO.

P.S. I've had a number of problems trying to find a suitable display.

1). I can NOT put up with DLP rainbows.

2). I could see phospher lag (similar to rainbows) with the Samsung and Pioneer (Kuro 1) plasma's

3). Current LCD's black levels or lack there of annoy me to much (when viewing in the dark at night)

4). The new LED backlight LCD's look promising but are too expensive currently (52")

gee... a tad too critical

In my lounge room - apart from the pana projector - I'm watching a 50in SAMSUNG PLASMA F8 MODEL. Viewing distance is about 3-4 mtres - and I have ZERO complaints about the image. Personally - I prefer plasma over LCD (there's a 32 in in the kitchen) - its got a warmer more human picture than an artificial looking LCD.

[MACCA350]

I'm sitting 3.4M from a 100" and it looks great IMHO any smaller(I tried it out) and it wouldn't have that "pull you into the movie" effect that cinema is all about

cheers

[mr-happy-pants]

G'day Drizt

We have similar room issues to you. Maybe not as bright as yours as we can block windows, but it aint ideal. I find there is still a noticalbe contrast difference for the better when it's dark,

We ended up with a low res 1080i plasma (42" Pana) for FTA & day-time viewing, and a 1080P projector & fixed screen for hi-res viewing & when it's darker. This lower res panel & higher res PJ suits us really well, but set us back ~$7000 for the panel, PJ, screen, HDMI switch, mount, install & external DSTB for PJ. not incl source etc.

You haven't mentioned budget (?) so it's hard, but you are fussy PQ wise.

Can you ID a $ ball-park?

IMO

If you can't stretch $ to 2 devices, you are going to have to go for a big hi-res panel. You won't be happy with a PJ during daylight based on your room. But I think you already know that.

MrHP