Pvr Or Dvdr? - A Continually Burning Question

[Tassie Devil]

This appears to be the hardest decision for nubies to make. Many see the DVDR as the obvious replacement to the VCR and in most ways that is correct, but that can result in overlooking the convenience of the PVR, particularly those with twin tuners.

So, I've revised the sticky as follows but would appreciate feedback.

John

The revised Item 14 in the sticky:

14. So Should I Buy a PVR or a DVDR?

This depends upon your viewing habits and whether or not you like to archive recordings and/or share them with others. DVDRs are more expensive and more complex. If you only look at FTA then a PVR is the cheaper and easier option with the only possible disadvantage being you must view the program in the room the PVR is located. Recordings from PVRs can be archived to a DVDR or a VCR.

Questions to answer in making the decision between a PVR and/or DVDR

1. Do you want to watch recorded programs in more than one room?

If your answer is “yes” then you need the recording to be on a DVD so you can watch it on any DVD players in any room.

If your answer is “no”, then recording on the HDD of a PVR is simpler and far more convenient.

2. Do you like sharing some recorded programs with others?

If your answer is “yes” then you need a DVDR but that could be in conjunction with a PVR. The few recorded programs you like to share can be downloaded to a DVDR later. That still makes the PVR the main recorder for time shifting programs. The alternative is to have a DVDR with a digital tuner and a HDD which you can time shift programs on. It is then simple to edit a recorded program and burn a disc.

If your answer is “no” then a PVR would meet your needs.

3. Do you find there are sometimes clashes of programs you want to record?

If your answer is “yes”, then you need a twin tuner recorder and, apart from an expensive Panasonic Blu Ray recorder, the only twin tuner units available are PVRs. The alternative is to have a TV set with a digital tuner you can use to look at a program while recording another on either a PVR or DVDR.

If the answer is “no” then a single tuner DVDR or PVR will be fine. (Note that this is not the experience of most of us).

4. Are there recordings you would like to keep for future viewing again?

If your answer is “yes” then a DVDR is the best option. It is possible to retain programs on the HDD of a PVR but this limits the amount of space available for future recordings. Another option is that some PVRs have the option of adding an external HDD so this could be used for such archiving.

So, before coming to a decision, examine your viewing habits carefully to determine if the extra cost of a DVDR is justified. If you do not want to keep programs to view again, view them in other DVD players in the house or share them with friends, then a DVDR is the better option. But be aware that your viewing habits will change because recording on HDD is so easy – you will record far more than you ever did on a VCR.

[50mxe20]

No mention of 5.1 sound?

Is this no longer an issue with DVD-R's?

[tonymy01]

1. The Beyonwiz series of HD-PVRs supports a client/server arrangement, so you can watch your recordings from unit A on unit B. Unit B can be the cheap DP-H1 which is purchased as HD-STB, but supports an external HDD which can make it a single tuner PVR. More STBs are offering these kinds of master/slave (client/server) type arrangements in the near future. e.g. TiVo.

2. Most modern PVRs have LAN connectivity, and recordings can be simply copied to PC or NAS (network attached storage) and archived there, or converted to DVD quite simply, including adding menus, clearing out those silly commercials etc. (ConvertXtoDVD is an excellent package which supports adding the subtitles too!).

4. covered in 2.

I guess a TV-extender of some kind could cover 1 also, where it extends the TV via RF or cable to another room (and the remote control).

Regards

[Tassie Devil]

No mention of 5.1 sound?

Is this no longer an issue with DVD-R's?

Is 5.1 DD an issue anywhere? There is not much being broadcast AFAIK. Prologic can be pretty effective in my experience.

John

[Tassie Devil]

1. The Beyonwiz series of HD-PVRs supports a client/server arrangement, so you can watch your recordings from unit A on unit B. Unit B can be the cheap DP-H1 which is purchased as HD-STB, but supports an external HDD which can make it a single tuner PVR. More STBs are offering these kinds of master/slave (client/server) type arrangements in the near future. e.g. TiVo.

2. Most modern PVRs have LAN connectivity, and recordings can be simply copied to PC or NAS (network attached storage) and archived there, or converted to DVD quite simply, including adding menus, clearing out those silly commercials etc. (ConvertXtoDVD is an excellent package which supports adding the subtitles too!).

4. covered in 2.

I guess a TV-extender of some kind could cover 1 also, where it extends the TV via RF or cable to another room (and the remote control).

Regards

Yes, that Beyonwiz opens up a heap of other possibilities as does the LAN connectivity option. Thanks for that, I'll wait to see other responses and do some more editing. I probably should include a section on LAN connectivity as it is becoming more common in PVRs, receivers etc. I've not gone that route myself and most likely will not but would do so if starting over from scratch so nubies should be made aware of it.

John

[50mxe20]

Is 5.1 DD an issue anywhere? There is not much being broadcast AFAIK. Prologic can be pretty effective in my experience.

John

Sometimes it is broadcast and it can be very good.

As to the merits well we've had that discussion before. We agree to disagree on that aspect. "Pretty effective" is just that, an effect. The real deal is superior IMHO.

The point of my question is that, "do the the new DVD-R's handle the recording and writing to DVD of DD 5.1".

If yes, there is no issue on that aspect.

If not, then that is a major plus for a networked (HD) PVR and should be on your list of points.

[Tassie Devil]

Sometimes it is broadcast and it can be very good.

As to the merits well we've had that discussion before. We agree to disagree on that aspect. "Pretty effective" is just that, an effect. The real deal is superior IMHO.

The point of my question is that, "do the the new DVD-R's handle the recording and writing to DVD of DD 5.1".

If yes, there is no issue on that aspect.

If not, then that is a major plus for a networked (HD) PVR and should be on your list of points.

I'm not sure of the answer to that question.

Anyone know which DVDRs with digital tuners can make DVDs with 5.1 audio encoded?

John

[prl]

...

2. Most modern PVRs have LAN connectivity, and recordings can be simply copied to PC or NAS (network attached storage) and archived there, or converted to DVD quite simply, including adding menus, clearing out those silly commercials etc. (ConvertXtoDVD is an excellent package which supports adding the subtitles too!).

...

However, using a PC to recode material recorded on a PVR to either convert HD to SD or to (say) put a full-length SD movie onto a single-layer DVD can be quite slow. On my 2GHz G5 iMac, recoding about 6GB of SD material onto a 4.7GB DVD takes about 18-20 hours using Toast 9.

Recording to DVD on a PC without recoding is generally fast, though.

A DVR can usually do this sort of compaction on-the-fly.

[tonymy01]

You are kidding, right? Are you sure you didn't mean re-encoding HD to fit a DVD takes that long? To build a DVD for someone the other day who missed an ep, it took me all of about 2mins to demux & 3mins to top and tail, and about 30mins (not of my time, of my CPU) to build back into a DVD (for an SD show) using ConvertXtoDVD on an Athlon 3000 (2G processor only still). You don't make a great advertisement for a Mac there Peter. Although I was only trying to get about 5G onto the DVD....

John/Tassie.

2 points:

Subtitle recording- A PVR generally records a filtered transport stream, so includes multiple audio streams and the subtitles in the recording, a DVDR may not. Subtitles can be quite important for some people.

5.1- Yes, there is some quite good 5.1 in the mainland. Seven has lots, Nine has plenty (watched CSI-NY in HD yesterday and was quite impressed by the 5.1 mix, thanks for once Nein!), and Ten has the odd show or two.

Regards

[50mxe20]

However, using a PC to recode material recorded on a PVR to either convert HD to SD or to (say) put a full-length SD movie onto a single-layer DVD can be quite slow. On my 2GHz G5 iMac, recoding about 6GB of SD material onto a 4.7GB DVD takes about 18-20 hours using Toast 9.

Recording to DVD on a PC without recoding is generally fast, though.

A DVR can usually do this sort of compaction on-the-fly.

I routinely convert HD material taken off a Toppy 7000 HD PVR and it takes nowhere near that length of time.

For example the AFL Grand Final with all the pre-game bumff was close to a 50 Gbyte file.

I edited out all the ads and saved it on three SD DVDs.

1. Pre-game

2. First Half

3. Second Half

Probably took a couple of hours all up, but nowhere near 18-20 hours each.

using ConvertXtoDVD

Yep, that's the one.

A realy great easy to use programme. And the latest version that has visual chapters is great.

[prl]

You are kidding, right? Are you sure you didn't mean re-encoding HD to fit a DVD takes that long? To build a DVD for someone the other day who missed an ep, it took me all of about 2mins to demux & 3mins to top and tail, and about 30mins (not of my time, of my CPU) to build back into a DVD (for an SD show) using ConvertXtoDVD on an Athlon 3000 (2G processor only still). You don't make a great advertisement for a Mac there Peter. Although I was only trying to get about 5G onto the DVD....

...

I was talking about recoding HD to SD to make a Video DVD (i.e. including downscaling and reducing the bitrate), and recoding SD when I want to convert > 4.7GB into a single-layer Video DVD, reducing the bitrate, and presumably redoing all the intermediate frame construction. The conversions I was talking about were using Toast's highest quality setting.

It's been taking the lengths of time I mentioned (18-20 hours) to put 6-7.5GB of SD onto a single-layer DVD, using Toast9 to do the recoding.

With SD being about 3GB/hour a movie only needs to be a bit over 90 minutes (after removing ads) to need recoding to fit on a single-layer DVD.

I don't know whether the cause is my Mac or the conversion process in Toast, or whether it's inherently that difficult on a general processor. Doing similar kinds of conversion using MPEG Streamclip is also pretty slow.

When I simply use MPEG Streamclip to demux and Toast to burn without recoding, it's fast (a couple of minutes to demux, then 15-30 min to burn).

Anyway, my point was that transferring from a PVR to a DVD on a PC can sometimes be surprisingly slow.

Edited October 17, 2008 by prl

[Puss in Books]

This appears to be the hardest decision for nubies to make. Many see the DVDR as the obvious replacement to the VCR and in most ways that is correct, but 3. Do you find there are sometimes clashes of programs you want to record?

If your answer is “yes”, then you need a twin tuner recorder and, apart from an expensive Panasonic Blu Ray recorder, the only twin tuner units available are PVRs. The alternative is to have a TV set with a digital tuner you can use to look at a program while recording another on either a PVR or DVDR.

If the answer is “no” then a single tuner DVDR or PVR will be fine. (Note that this is not the experience of most of us).

There is also a cheaper Panasonic twin-tuner SD-DVD recorder.

[Basil1503559642]

Quote"Anyway, my point was that transferring from a PVR to a DVD on a PC can sometimes be surprisingly slow. "

Hi

Yep, and a PIA at times,the new Panny. BD/DVD HD Rec. are a great all in one solution for SD & HD storeage.

[50mxe20]

I was talking about recoding HD to SD to make a Video DVD (i.e. including downscaling and reducing the bitrate), and recoding SD when I want to convert > 4.7GB into a single-layer Video DVD, reducing the bitrate, and presumably redoing all the intermediate frame construction. The conversions I was talking about were using Toast's highest quality setting.

So are we.

(Sorry to the OP for going OT).

Just get vso's convertXtoDVD.

Does it all in one step unless you want to cut out ads. Then use VideoReDo Plus first.

No lip sync issues and amazingly quick and easy to use.

In my experience there is no need to use the highest quality settings.

Sorry Tassie.

[prl]

...

Just get vso's convertXtoDVD.

...

You missed out on a step.

1. Buy PC.

Edited October 17, 2008 by prl

[Tassie Devil]

There is also a cheaper Panasonic twin-tuner SD-DVD recorder.

Thanks for that info - I was unaware of that. Just spotted it on the Panny site. Any info on the sensitivity of the tuner? That is the Archilles heel of the Pioneer unit.

Pioneer are dragging their feet a bit

John

[50mxe20]

You missed out on a step.

1. Buy PC.

Sorry, I suppose that was a bit condescending.

But these days I assume everyone has a PC.

[prl]

Sorry, I suppose that was a bit condescending.

But these days I assume everyone has a PC.

I had posted my hardware configuration earlier in the discussion: "2GHz G5 iMac".

Anyway, enough from me, and I guess I need to go and experiment with twiddling the knobs on Toast.

[50mxe20]

I had posted my hardware configuration earlier in the discussion: "2GHz G5 iMac".

Anyway, enough from me, and I guess I need to go and experiment with twiddling the knobs on Toast.

You can download a free trial of convertXtoDVD

http://www.vso-software.fr/?ap=avangate&aid=2202

Puts a logo in the displayable result.

If you find it works you can then buy it.

It's rel cheap anyway.

L.

[diesel]

Thanks for that info - I was unaware of that. Just spotted it on the Panny site.

John, this little baby comes with twin HD tuners. This is probably the only model (other than the Panny BD recorder) that maybe be able to record DD5.1 from FTA and burn to DVD. Need the owners to answer that one I think

You can download a free trial of convertXtoDVD

Or you could try a 15 day free trial of VideoReDo Plus. I use this on all my PCs and my 2Ghz P4 takes about 3-4 hours to recode and burn a 6-7GB HD file to SD DVD. My 1.8Ghz Core 2 Duo laptop takes between 45mins-1 hour.

VideoReDo

[cwt]

John, this little baby comes with twin HD tuners. This is probably the only model (other than the Panny BD recorder) that maybe be able to record DD5.1 from FTA and burn to DVD. Need the owners to answer that one I think

To answer that one ; the pana bdr x300 cant record 5.1 dd stored on its hdd to a sd disc only 2.0 ;the 500 can record 5.1 to a bluray re [not sure about a sd disc ; think not].

The thing that is an advantage over a standalone pvr and seperate dvd recorder is no d/a a/d conversion as well as a possible s-video only connection . Its like a bit bucket with no quality loss to the disc

Edited October 17, 2008 by cwt

[prl]

You can download a free trial of convertXtoDVD

http://www.vso-software.fr/?ap=avangate&aid=2202

Puts a logo in the displayable result.

If you find it works you can then buy it.

It's rel cheap anyway.

L.

As I've already said twice, I'm using a G5 iMac. As far as I can see, convertXtoDVD is available only for Windows PCs.

If I need to buy a PC to run it, it's not going to be "rel cheap." If I run a PC emulator on the Mac, it won't be "rel fast," either, though it's possible that it may not be slower than what I'm doing at the moment.

I know that most of the computers in the world are PCs running Windows. But not all of them yet.

Edited October 19, 2008 by prl

[Basil1503559642]

Hi

I agree with you,PVR-Computer-DVD/BD can be time consuming,the new Panny 300/500 Rec. make archiving a breeze,but Lyle's just offering suggestions and trying to help.

[prl]

Hi

I agree with you,PVR-Computer-DVD/BD can be time consuming,the new Panny 300/500 Rec. make archiving a breeze,but Lyle's just offering suggestions and trying to help.

I realise that, but it's the second time that someone has recommended PC-only software when I said in my first post in the topic that I have a G5 iMac. I later replied to the first person who suggested convertXtoDVD saying that I had a G5 iMac. In the post where Lyle suggested that I use convertXtoDVD, he quotes me as saying I have a G5 iMac. As far as I can tell, convertXtoDVD is not available for Macs.

I'm more than happy that people make suggestions to help, but when I get told to use software that I can't reasonably use, it doesn't help very much.

Edited October 19, 2008 by prl

[twitch1503562349]

prl, as a fellow RISC based mac owenr I feel your pain.

I'm beginning to think buying a cheap DVR might be the best way to create DVDs out of the Beyonwiz recordings, at least it's a real-time conversion process rather than a multi-hour marathon.