Nothing Wrong With A Little Overkill (ht Amps)

[Mitcon1503562253]

Well for ages I've had problems with not enough power but couldn't afford some of the well known multi-channel amplifers. To those of you interested in a less expensive way to get some power this may be of interest to you. I've tried the idea of using commerical/studio/Pro type amps (quite common it seems in the US) and I'm now enjoying my system greatly. For the moment I've only got 2 amps (4 channels) driving the mains and center but will be getting more for the rears shortly. I've no idea why folks shy away from the idea of using these as they seem to be doing a fine job though 450w per channel maybe a little overkill for some (like other people living in your street lol) but it's nice to have the headroom. SWMBO even loves the sound of movies she used to ask me to turn down even though this time she may not have knwon but were in-fact louder

[MACCA350]

Your not the only one who has looked at pro amps for HT use. Here is one guys opinion on it

A while ago I was looking at adding a few Phonic XP amps into the mix.......only thing is they don't have 12v trigger.

But as you said Pro amps can be a very cost effective way to get more power

cheers

[Mitcon1503562253]

That site is one I came across and got me thinking about doing it. The AMPs I have used have a RCA/unbalanced as well as the normal Pro type balanced so it becomes alot more simple as you don't need to make cables up and have other gear. Just plug the RCA pre-outs to the balanced RCA inputs and away you go. Depending on the AMP fans can be an issue because of noise but when using the ones I have the fans only come on after playing demanding music at high output levels (in which case you can't even tell the fans are on because of the sound level unless you stop the music instantly) but with movies the fans don't even come on.The AMPs I have got cost less than $300, 12v trigger would be nice and very handy but these don't have that either. Instead I have just bought a RF controled power board (cost $40) so I can turn them on remotely 1 at a time (incase I only want one on for 2 channel music) or all turned off with one button.

Oh also no hum problems as I'm not using the XLR unbalanced type connections and the AMP already have a ground/lift switch built in also. @ 8ohm the model I have is putting out 2 x 300w, IMO thats great value as it's less than $1 per watt but they are heavy suckers at about 15kg or so but thats normal for any decent AMP I guess.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Mitcon

[michaeljayc]

I use a commercial Yamaha amplifier to run my subwoofer system, plenty of headroom but I still have driven it into overload with many movies.

As mentioned before, the only issue I find with commercial amplifiers in home theatre situations is the "usually" loud fan cooling systems. These amps are meant to be driven hard and for long periods of time. Generally they are mounted in some kind of rack arrangement where forced air cooling is the only way to go.

In a home situation, the fan cooling can generally be downgraded without compromising the health of the amplifier. My amplifier had it's fans replaced with 24V units (originally 12V). They still have plenty of air flow and are much, much quieter.

Michael.

[Mitcon1503562253]

Just thought I'd share a pic also as I hear alot of people say Pro AMPs looks don't fit/look well in the home either...Bah, I think they look fine.

Hmm, pics not working

Edited September 28, 2008 by Mitcon

[yamapro]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j29/Mitc...28-9-08011c.jpg

There ya go mate

Edited September 28, 2008 by yamapro

[lonewolf1503560131]

There ya go mate

Guys,

Can you please give me a bit more info on these? Where can i buy these kinds of amps for 2nd hand cheap prices? I have a few 2nd hand power amps already but if these kinds of amps are way better bang for buck...... are they that much better value or only slightly better value? I dont care at all how they look or even fan noise one bit. Just performance for HT.

[Mitcon1503562253]

Guys,

Can you please give me a bit more info on these? Where can i buy these kinds of amps for 2nd hand cheap prices? I have a few 2nd hand power amps already but if these kinds of amps are way better bang for buck...... are they that much better value or only slightly better value? I dont care at all how they look or even fan noise one bit. Just performance for HT.

What info are you after ? info on the Biema range of AMP's or just info on using Pro/commercial AMPs for home theater set-ups ?

As to where to buy them, I got mine off ebay brand new for a 2nd hand price lol which is great because this way I still have the warranty also. If you don;t like ebay I'd be looking at the buy/sell sections of online sound/audio/DJ/band forums. There are differences in models and some are better suited to HT use than others, I was going to go for some even cheaper ones but found they didn;t have any where near the power they were rated at and then they were also going to be difficult/expensive to connect to consumer level pre-outs.

These Biema's I got off ebay were like $300 including postage roughly and they have cheaper/less powered models if your not needing as much as I went with. That said they also have models with more power lol. This is the ebay stoe I bought mine from http://stores.ebay.com.au/THE-AUDIO-AUSTRA...9QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[lonewolf1503560131]

Nice specs, i suppose only problem is no 12volt trigger for auto on / off? Question is does sound quality improve with proper HT amps compared to these amps? The powers Amps i currently use are ME-150, ME-85, ME-75 and the Elektra Theatre 7channel (only using 1 channel at the moment).

So would these pro amps provide similar / better sound quality than those amps or are these pro amps more for people who wanted to upgrade from their receivers?

I was looking at this one from that store : http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRANDNEW-BIEMA-750W...oQQcmdZViewItem

750 watts per channel.

What info are you after ? info on the Biema range of AMP's or just info on using Pro/commercial AMPs for home theater set-ups ?

As to where to buy them, I got mine off ebay brand new for a 2nd hand price lol which is great because this way I still have the warranty also. If you don;t like ebay I'd be looking at the buy/sell sections of online sound/audio/DJ/band forums. There are differences in models and some are better suited to HT use than others, I was going to go for some even cheaper ones but found they didn;t have any where near the power they were rated at and then they were also going to be difficult/expensive to connect to consumer level pre-outs.

These Biema's I got off ebay were like $300 including postage roughly and they have cheaper/less powered models if your not needing as much as I went with. That said they also have models with more power lol. This is the ebay stoe I bought mine from http://stores.ebay.com.au/THE-AUDIO-AUSTRA...9QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[quijibo]

Do you mind if I pry a little further?

Are you running dream acoustics speakers off those amps?

What amp/receiver were you running previously?

And what are receiver are you feeding into these now?

[lonewolf1503560131]

I am running Equinox Perigees for the fronts, Equinox Aphelions for the surrounds, Equinox Zeniths for the rears and Subsonc PC-1 for the center.

My surround sound pre-amp / processor is a NAD M15, used to be a Rotel RSP-1066.

Was contemplating getting a Rotel RSP-1098, but i think the NAD M15 might be better...?

Do you mind if I pry a little further?

Are you running dream acoustics speakers off those amps?

What amp/receiver were you running previously?

And what are receiver are you feeding into these now?

Edited September 29, 2008 by lonewolf

[Mitcon1503562253]

Nice specs, i suppose only problem is no 12volt trigger for auto on / off? Question is does sound quality improve with proper HT amps compared to these amps? The powers Amps i currently use are ME-150, ME-85, ME-75 and the Elektra Theatre 7channel (only using 1 channel at the moment).

So would these pro amps provide similar / better sound quality than those amps or are these pro amps more for people who wanted to upgrade from their receivers?

I was looking at this one from that store : http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRANDNEW-BIEMA-750W...oQQcmdZViewItem

750 watts per channel.

12v trigger would be nice yes but these don't have them, I've just bought a RF power board and use the remote to turn the AMPs on, not as good as having them just come on with the pre/processor but it is handy in the fact if I only want to listen to 2 channel I can just power the one amp up. Was a pretty cheap work around, the power board is only $40 including remote. Now as to sound quality I can't compare the amps you have to these units as I've not heard the models you have. Sound quality should (doesn't mean it is lol) be the same with any decent AMP, from what I have read alot of people feel Pro AMPs may have an edge as they are built for industrial/commercial/studio use and will out last consumer level home theater amps. How many Cinema's, recording studios, bands..etc do you think would use a multi-channel consumer based amp ? I think that in itself says alot though to be honest IMO I think it should be more a matter of which AMP suits your needs power wise. Theres not alot of multi-channel HT AMPs that give over 200wpc, that seems to be the limit. For me it was just a simple matter of it's good enough for cinemas and audophiles/recording studios and the plain fact that per watt are so much cheaper it's not funny.

Why do you only use one channel of the Elektra ? I thought as far as consumer HT AMPs these were meant to be quite decent. The only other thing that comes to mind is why would you want a 750wpc AMP lol, I thought I went overkill with the 450wpc lol. There is the other side of the fence which thinks your better off with high-end low level amps and just using super efficent speakers. Oh with some of these Pro level amps connection them to your processor can be a bit of a pain and you need to get some other bits sorted to do it. Balanced/unbalanced doesn't matter so much but the input of the line level can be an issue.

Do you mind if I pry a little further?

Are you running dream acoustics speakers off those amps?

What amp/receiver were you running previously?

And what are receiver are you feeding into these now?

I wonder was this question meant for me actually ? If it is I don't mind at all, ask away lol.

The speakers I have are from Dream Acoustics but aren't the Dream Acoustics range, I went with the Simba's. The AMP/receiver I was/am using is a Pioneer 2AX2AS AVR, it is in-fact still what I'm using though I'm just using it as a processor now using the pre-outs.

[quijibo]

Yeah I was meaning to ask Mitcon, but thanks for sharing lonewolf, I've never heard any equinox speakers, but they always get such great feedback that I must remember to keep them on my list when I go speaker shopping in the near future.

So Mitcon, what sort of improvements are you finding? Those dream speakers should be comfortably driven by the pioneer receiver, so surely the power amps can't make entry-level speakers ound that much better... or can they?

[joz]

Imo nothing wrong with Pro gear at all.but if you do compare to the hi-fi equals you may may prefer the hi-fi sound.Especially if music is a priority.

But bang for your buck they hard to go past for HT.

Just need to remember that they were disigned for pro use no and not domestic.So if the fans cutting in and being audible annoy you or the fact that they are not fully automated is a problem maybe a deidcated ht unit is better.

Also most pro amps seem to be digital aswell,some purists may want to steer away from that aswell.

But they sure sereve a purpose.

[Mitcon1503562253]

Yeah I was meaning to ask Mitcon, but thanks for sharing lonewolf, I've never heard any equinox speakers, but they always get such great feedback that I must remember to keep them on my list when I go speaker shopping in the near future.

So Mitcon, what sort of improvements are you finding? Those dream speakers should be comfortably driven by the pioneer receiver, so surely the power amps can't make entry-level speakers ound that much better... or can they?

Well often the problem with the cheaper speakers is they aren't very efficent and so once you start to increase volume to a decent level you will find alot start to suffer from compression. This can leave the sound very empty and a little harsh/bright as compression affects the mids and lower end mostly. I think most any AVR doesn't really put out enough power to fully drive a speaker well (unless they are extremely good & efficent speakers) as most only really put out between 40-100wpc @8ohm at the very most. I've not had things set-up that long to really give a full statement on the difference I'm now enjoying but my wife has gone from hating me playing anything to asking and wanting me to put more movies/music on for her. A few movies she really hated because they were too harsh for her she now is going "wow" at. I think mostly the sound is much fuller and the soundstage being much better and really drawing you into the action/movie. Music is much more emotive with greater clarity in the mids and low end. I listen at quite loud volume with my movies & music and I find with the extra power the is just much less distortion. Most speakers will go very loud driven by just an AVR but without enough power they just suffer too much distortion and compression.

While I certainly wouldn't call my speakers (or any of the Dream Acoustics range) high end or even quality speakers I also wouldn't call them entry-level but there is quite a range of quality between the different speakers from Dream Acoustics. Some are quite poor while others are quite usable. Most are better than the HTIB type speakers and also better than alot of the average retail department store speakers. They are however the lowest quality of speaker I would consider using. But I will say I can't wait to replace these speakers as I've got my eye on some which will take me a year or so to get, these speakers were always just a way to get me by till I can afford my real "Dream" speakers lol.

[Mitcon1503562253]

Imo nothing wrong with Pro gear at all.but if you do compare to the hi-fi equals you may may prefer the hi-fi sound.Especially if music is a priority.

But bang for your buck they hard to go past for HT.

Just need to remember that they were disigned for pro use no and not domestic.So if the fans cutting in and being audible annoy you or the fact that they are not fully automated is a problem maybe a deidcated ht unit is better.

Also most pro amps seem to be digital aswell,some purists may want to steer away from that aswell.

But they sure sereve a purpose.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm far from an expert but I thought most "Pro" gear was meant to be all about fidelity. Fidelity is about the reproduction of the true sound or at the least the source. I know there is alot of people that believe Pro gear is a no-no and not HiFi but there is alot of Vodoo in the world of Audiophiles or at least that is what some will have you believe. I think IMHO it's really like most things, it's subjective and something that is in-fact hard for one person to say whats good and what isn't as sound like taste is a personal thing. I think the fact these type of AMPs are made for commercial use is a plus not a con as it means they are hardly even working up a sweat in comsuner use. Automation can be had if you really must have it and fans noise is in most cases a non-issue as you can put these in a cabinet or a different room even if you like. There is also lots of threads on forums about basic mods to be done to make them quiet and ones like I have during movies stay that cool the fans don't even come on. As to music why would a Pro amp be no good ? What do recording studios who make the music use ? What do the artist playing the music use ? I know some people in the music and movie recording business, some that own their own clubs/studios and serious audiophiles and they prefer Pro gear.

I think when talking about source & speakers there is more important but any decent amp should be ok as the only thing an amp should do if amplify the signal fed to it. Also as to the digital side of things again this is subjective, different strokes for different folks.

[tb1231503560936]

Hey Mitcon, at the risk of sounding silly, what controls the volume now in this setup?

Do you crank up the volume on the power amps (it looks like you have 3 channels all the way up in your pic) and the receiver still controls the volume (which I'm assuming it does).

Does this make the receiver more sensitive to volume increases, eg: each 1db gain on the receiver makes for a huge jump in volume?

How do the rears in a 5.1 setup sound, overpowered, outgunned etc?

The prices certainly look cheap enough, I wonder if I need a couple of these to drive my new speakers......

[Mitcon1503562253]

Hey Mitcon, at the risk of sounding silly, what controls the volume now in this setup?

Do you crank up the volume on the power amps (it looks like you have 3 channels all the way up in your pic) and the receiver still controls the volume (which I'm assuming it does).

Does this make the receiver more sensitive to volume increases, eg: each 1db gain on the receiver makes for a huge jump in volume?

How do the rears in a 5.1 setup sound, overpowered, outgunned etc?

The prices certainly look cheap enough, I wonder if I need a couple of these to drive my new speakers......

Your not silly, IMHO the only silly question is the one thats never asked mate

Yes I turn the gain/volume up to 0 (full-100%) on the AMPs and then you control the soundlevel/volume by the volume control on the receiver/AVR. It doesn't make the volume jump or go that much louder persay, it is louder but not a huge amount. The sound is different though as the speakers are better/fully driven so the soundstage, emotion/mids and lows are better. Most AVR's (I think yours would be very simular to mine just yours is a newer model) don't put out enough power so when you increase the volume you actaully cause compression and distortion. I guess the easy way to explain it is movies will have much punch and music becomes more emotive, sounds become more like they would in real life so things become much more immersive. You feel much more like your "really there". If you want we could do a GTG, you could have a look at what these AMP's are like and I could hear those fab speakers when you get them. Oh BTW do you have a SPL meter ? If not I have one and if your local enough you could use it to set-up your levels/trims.

As to the rears they sound fine as the AVR no longer drives my mains or center, all speaker levels are still set to be the same so the rears are evenly set/matched in volume still. I will be getting a 3rd AMP to drive the rears though soon as my budget allows, the reason one AMP shows only 1 channel at full and the other at min is because I have the center speaker being driven by one channel on that AMp and the other channel isn't connected to anything though soon as I get a rear center speaker I'll connect it to that.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Mitcon

[Jeffie1503561482]

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm far from an expert but I thought most "Pro" gear was meant to be all about fidelity. Fidelity is about the reproduction of the true sound or at the least the source. I know there is alot of people that believe Pro gear is a no-no and not HiFi but there is alot of Vodoo in the world of Audiophiles or at least that is what some will have you believe. I think IMHO it's really like most things, it's subjective and something that is in-fact hard for one person to say whats good and what isn't as sound like taste is a personal thing. I think the fact these type of AMPs are made for commercial use is a plus not a con as it means they are hardly even working up a sweat in comsuner use. Automation can be had if you really must have it and fans noise is in most cases a non-issue as you can put these in a cabinet or a different room even if you like. There is also lots of threads on forums about basic mods to be done to make them quiet and ones like I have during movies stay that cool the fans don't even come on. As to music why would a Pro amp be no good ? What do recording studios who make the music use ? What do the artist playing the music use ? I know some people in the music and movie recording business, some that own their own clubs/studios and serious audiophiles and they prefer Pro gear.

I think when talking about source & speakers there is more important but any decent amp should be ok as the only thing an amp should do if amplify the signal fed to it. Also as to the digital side of things again this is subjective, different strokes for different folks.

I dont think you can compare cinema and recording studio etc amps to PA and DJ amps (which these ones look like), just because they are both 'pro' gear. They say cinema on that ebay listing but I doubt youd find these at a hoyts or reading etc.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Jeffie

[Mitcon1503562253]

I dont think you can compare cinema and recording studio etc amps to PA and DJ amps (which these ones look like), just because they are both 'pro' gear. They say cinema on that ebay listing but I doubt youd find these at a hoyts or reading etc.

The model I listed is pretty much an entry point level though they are meant to be very good quality for a unit at this level. I didn't see/notice anything on the ebay listing (or anywhere else for that matter) that said Cinema or for Cinema use. I just said I'm using them for this purpose. However how is your average stereo integrated or consumer based multi-channel amp any closer to the type a Cinema or studio would use ? I'm not claiming these are high end (or better than high end) in sound quality, just that they are another option for people looking for amplification that may be more cost effective for those on a limited budget. I do think that it would stand to be common sense that a AMP made for commercial duty would be as well or better made to stand the rigours of use and may last longer in a consumer environment. Shouldn't a amplifier do just one thing, no matter on design or style cooling or looks it should just amplify a signal. I know that a lot of amps sound different, though I would think a good amp shouldn't have a "sound". None of what I have said is meant to be an "attack" on other folks opinions or gear and certainly this level of set-up is not going to appeal to everyone.

I guess I'm new to these forums and I'm certainly far from an expert in sonics but for those interested do a search and read the info out there for yourself and make your own choices. There are people like in all things who sit of different sides of a fence and I think thats a good thing as everyone is different. End of the day all these kind of things are subjective, I think amps are a bit like cables as once you get a certain point/quality for most folks thats good enough and the more important part then is the source & speakers. Feel free to educate me or have your say folks as I like to keep an open mind and learn and I'm certain that threads like this help others at least. But I don't wish to be flamed and no-one learns or does well from that so keep it positive please.

End of the day this thread was really just a way for me to post and share a little bit of my choices and what I'm doing, it's all food for thought.

[joz]

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm far from an expert but I thought most "Pro" gear was meant to be all about fidelity. Fidelity is about the reproduction of the true sound or at the least the source. I know there is alot of people that believe Pro gear is a no-no and not HiFi but there is alot of Vodoo in the world of Audiophiles or at least that is what some will have you believe. I think IMHO it's really like most things, it's subjective and something that is in-fact hard for one person to say whats good and what isn't as sound like taste is a personal thing. I think the fact these type of AMPs are made for commercial use is a plus not a con as it means they are hardly even working up a sweat in comsuner use. Automation can be had if you really must have it and fans noise is in most cases a non-issue as you can put these in a cabinet or a different room even if you like. There is also lots of threads on forums about basic mods to be done to make them quiet and ones like I have during movies stay that cool the fans don't even come on. As to music why would a Pro amp be no good ? What do recording studios who make the music use ? What do the artist playing the music use ? I know some people in the music and movie recording business, some that own their own clubs/studios and serious audiophiles and they prefer Pro gear.

I think when talking about source & speakers there is more important but any decent amp should be ok as the only thing an amp should do if amplify the signal fed to it. Also as to the digital side of things again this is subjective, different strokes for different folks.

I'm not trying to cause any grief or put down pro gear by any means here but maybe I'll attempt to make my post a bit clearer.

Back to yes I do believe that pro gear is different to the home audiophile stuff.The home stuff is generally more hi-fi as you move up thge spending chain.

Where as lots of Pro gear is made for getting speakers loud on a stage or live venue of sorts.SPL's before absolute SQ

I seriously doubt that quality recording studios use these amps for mastering and monitoring their speakers.

I'm not suggesting anywhere that the said amps are not capable but am suggesting that for the scrutineering that engineers in recording studios use are not what is readily available to us punters without significantly higher outlay.

What these Pro amps are generally used for is their affordability,ruggedness and surplus power for the stage /roady use.Fidelity is not their priority for stage (I'm sure all of us here have been to a concert),any of their shortcomings tend not to be realised by the err..mosh pit divers..

But having said that I would certainly believe that they'd outperform any inbuilt amplification that todays recievers have on board.

Again I'm not knocking them,rather just trying to highlight their intended function.

PS yes I can see myself with a pair or two to drive a few of my bits.

[Jeffie1503561482]

sorry mate not not having a go at you, i was just pointing to the fact that the use of 'pro' gear was very broad. Things like DJ amps, club, and PA gear are designed to get the most sound out as possible, without being as accurate to the source as just say a cinema or studio would be.

*what he said^^^

Edited September 29, 2008 by Jeffie

[MACCA350]

Shouldn't a amplifier do just one thing, no matter on design or style cooling or looks it should just amplify a signal. I know that a lot of amps sound different, though I would think a good amp shouldn't have a "sound".

I remember saying something similar ages ago.........right before I got my @ss whooped

I think amps are a bit like cables as once you get a certain point/quality for most folks thats good enough and the more important part then is the source & speakers.

and room.

cheers

[joz]

Also I want to add that because I have zero experience with your purchase that I'm making no direct assumption about it.

Just my views about PA (Pro Audio) gear in general.

Also remembering that even with in the PA umbrella that the prices vary dramatically as does quality.

I know there are many around here that have peices designed for the Pro market sprinkled about in their systems with varying results.

I myself am waiting for delivery of certain Pro items.

I also use some Pro drivers within my system as do others.But then there are those that simply do not like the PA sound because its not quite their flavour so to speak.

[Mitcon1503562253]

I'm not trying to cause any grief or put down pro gear by any means here but maybe I'll attempt to make my post a bit clearer.

Back to yes I do believe that pro gear is different to the home audiophile stuff.The home stuff is generally more hi-fi as you move up thge spending chain.

Where as lots of Pro gear is made for getting speakers loud on a stage or live venue of sorts.SPL's before absolute SQ

I seriously doubt that quality recording studios use these amps for mastering and monitoring their speakers.

I'm not suggesting anywhere that the said amps are not capable but am suggesting that for the scrutineering that engineers in recording studios use are not what is readily available to us punters without significantly higher outlay.

What these Pro amps are generally used for is their affordability,ruggedness and surplus power for the stage /roady use.Fidelity is not their priority for stage (I'm sure all of us here have been to a concert),any of their shortcomings tend not to be realised by the err..mosh pit divers..

But having said that I would certainly believe that they'd outperform any inbuilt amplification that todays recievers have on board.

Again I'm not knocking them,rather just trying to highlight their intended function.

PS yes I can see myself with a pair or two to drive a few of my bits.

Very fair comments and easily understood and as with most things if you pay more you get more. I certainly doubt they would compare/compete with a high-end AMP that costs 10 to 20 times as much but I would think that would just be common sense. If I could afford better, lol I too would be buying better as wouldn't we all ? As to outperforming AVR's that was the whole point originally as I use these mostly for movies though for my own personal taste/listening with music they seem to be fine. My source for music would be my biggest let down and then my speakers to be honest.

Still, the value is there and I think for me (and others like myself) they are another good option considering the price. I think a high powered model of one of these would do well with a monster DIY sub one day.