Digital Multimedia Solutions - Network Media Players -pvr

[renura]

Hi Guys,

We have been evaluating a number of Network Media Players, PVRs and other Digital Multimedia Solutions for a while now.

From our point of view, all the ones we have been looking at have advantages and and disadvantages and come with a variety of features, some more valuable than others.

I am wondering what you guys think about these devices, in general, and what features you would value most.

If you would like to list the 10 most important things you would value in a:

1. PVR
   
2. NMP
   
3. or indeed in a single solution box for the living room.
   

Based on your feedback, we will make a list of the top 10 or 20 most wanted features and use this as the basis for comparison.

Any and all feedback appreciated.

Cheers

Renura

PS: (no we have not abandoned the HTPC route, but we are also pushing convergence from the other side now)

[myrantz]

Well, my "grand master plan" is to have a single machine hidden something doing all the recording (FTA and DVB-S) and hosting all the songs/video. So it's just a box (or two), no display, no control, it just sits there - the media server.

Then NMP in places when I want to play media. Controlled with a remote control, boots up quickly. Need to be able to manipulate the media server like deleting recordings, adding new music, schedule recordings, etc. For videos, I want to be able to watch it from one NMP, pause it, shut down the NMP, move to the next room, and resume video playback from where I left of in as little button presses as possible.

MythTV is almost there (if not already), but is there a commercial solution that offers something better?

[drubie]

What treblid said.

Although, I envisage a bunch of little devices (although I'm always trying to make these things cheap :-), like a little file server that wakes up on demand so it doesn't suck too much power, hosting space for the automated PVR somewhere else. Then it wouldn't matter if I was sitting down with a laptop, using a standard def network media player somewhere else in the house or using the main display in the living room, the minimum amount of devices are on for what I'm trying to do - i.e. I'd be super happy if some hardware only server was hanging off the network with the PVR schedule in it, then remotely woke up the PVR box when it was time to record something (i.e. using wake on lan 5 minutes before the recording was to start). With a small amount of programming it could be done with the VDR project on a server, a tiny linux install on a flash-only device running the scheduler etc. The PVR box would be filled with DVB-S and DVB-T cards, so it's only on when recording or when live TV is being viewed and shuts off when it's finished. Make it modular, in other words, and lightweight. Obviously, "instant on" in this scenario wouldn't work but normal set top boxes are fine for that kind of thing.

It would have to be super flexible though - SMB server, Syabas compatible server, UPnP, perhaps even NFS. Although, with all the commercial movie download services still in infancy, the window for this kind of product would be pretty small.

I've been "nearly there" for a while but none of the stuff I really like was even close to commercial. I'm not using any of the supplied software for the old Neuston for example, and the PS2 which also does these things is booting off a hacked memory card full of bodgy software. It's not for the faint hearted doing this stuff on the cheap :-)

[digitaladvisor]

The solution for a size that fits all is difficult.

But myself being what I am puting it simply.

It would the minimum requirements:

1. It must have HDMI implementation prefer at least 1.3.

2. It should have optical or SP-DIF capability.

3. I am of two minds regarding fit out capability of HD Tuner Cards into the device. Software streaming and steering of tuner cards in Streamers remain problematic at times. Besides with embedded HD tuners in most displays these days it is becoming less and less important.

4. Hardware wise the decoder chipset should be fairly recent and capable of up to 1080p upscale/MPEG decode and H.264 [which is my broad generic term to HD MPEG 4 compliant]

5. Cable connect network.

6. USB storage and other various storage devices like SD cards which can now be as large as 32gig.

Software:

1. Good clean navigation.

2. SMB/Syabas/UPnP

3. DVD / HD ts/tp compatible / subtitles/ menus/ Disc images / MKV containers due to popularity

4. Easy navigations of shared hard drives on network that maybe PVRing DTV with fitted tuner cards

5. Internet connection

6. Easy online internet updating of firmware

digitaladvisor

[AndrewW]

excellent question, at just the right time.

I've been procrastinating over this decision for over a year now .... considered the Mediagate machines, then the Tvicos, current unit under consideration is the HDX-1000.

edit: I briefly considered the popcorn hour machine, but having to pre-order in (US dollars) with the falling US dollar and no local support has turned me off that option pretty quickly.

My main use for this box will be to rip about 100 of my kids DVDs to disc, to save the hassle of finding the right disc, load times, and not to mention damage to the discs themselves.

I'd also like to be able to stream (network or external storage) TV shows that I've 'acquired', some of which are in HD formats.

HD Tuners and PVR functionality would really only be a bonus, rather than a requirement, and to be honest I'd rather a cheaper machine without the function (hence currently considering the HDX-1000 for $450 including a 750Gb drive, as opposed for probably $700+ for a no drive version of the upcoming Tvico).

Edited September 13, 2008 by AndrewW

[DreamDVBBox]

I have been waiting for my dream box for years, currently running a HTPC to do it all, but it has its share of problems.

If I could replace it with a well integrated box, with no need for OS or software upgrades, drivers, filters, codecs, encoders, decoders and the Lord know what else! I would be extremely happy.

Basically what I mainly do currently is:

View, timeshift and record Digital TV.

Play Video files (DVD, recorded TV, other video files)

Play Music

View Photos

Record from the Foxtel Box (if I could remove this, I would be 100% there already)

View the output of a Foxtel box and upscale to watch on a big screen.

Occasionaly capture video from my video camera and store on the Hard drive

Copy, move delete and play audio.video material which is on a network drive

The PC is connected to the display using HDMI 1.1 (that is fine for me) and connected to a reciver through digital out.

That it is man! Simple.

Give me a box that can to this (using one remote is even better) and I will buy it right now.

[Knightod]

I have been waiting for my dream box for years, currently running a HTPC to do it all, but it has its share of problems.

If I could replace it with a well integrated box, with no need for OS or software upgrades, drivers, filters, codecs, encoders, decoders and the Lord know what else! I would be extremely happy.

Basically what I mainly do currently is:

View, timeshift and record Digital TV.

Play Video files (DVD, recorded TV, other video files)

Play Music

View Photos

Record from the Foxtel Box (if I could remove this, I would be 100% there already)

View the output of a Foxtel box and upscale to watch on a big screen.

Occasionaly capture video from my video camera and store on the Hard drive

Copy, move delete and play audio.video material which is on a network drive

The PC is connected to the display using HDMI 1.1 (that is fine for me) and connected to a reciver through digital out.

That it is man! Simple.

Give me a box that can to this (using one remote is even better) and I will buy it right now.

The BeyonWiz DP-P2 appears to do all that you want. I have not used one, only looked at their web site.

What I want is a cheap, simple to use, reliable NMP that does HD. I don't really want anything else. I currently use a modded XBox and XBMC, but this does not do HD, adn is not the quietest beast. Still, until I find something better...

Knightod

[DreamDVBBox]

deleted double post

Edited September 13, 2008 by DreamDVBBox

[DreamDVBBox]

The BeyonWiz DP-P2 appears to do all that you want. I have not used one, only looked at their web site.

What I want is a cheap, simple to use, reliable NMP that does HD. I don't really want anything else. I currently use a modded XBox and XBMC, but this does not do HD, adn is not the quietest beast. Still, until I find something better...

Knightod

Yes many boxes can do what I am doing at the moment, but something like the beyonwiz DP-P2 can not replace the Foxtel box, so I would still have two boxes and a lot less features. What I want is only one box - maybe if the beyonwiz can add a satellite tv tuner and a cam for Foxtel, then we are talking.

[AndrewW]

maybe if the beyonwiz can add a satellite tv tuner and a cam for Foxtel, then we are talking.

No way Foxtel are ever going to let another manufacturer decode their signal, especially in a box that can record.

How are they going to price gouge their victims customers on upfront fees + monthly fees for IQ if they do that?

Edited September 13, 2008 by AndrewW

[swordfish805]

excellent question, at just the right time.

I've been procrastinating over this decision for over a year now .... considered the Mediagate machines, then the Tvicos, current unit under consideration is the HDX-1000.

edit: I briefly considered the popcorn hour machine, but having to pre-order in (US dollars) with the falling US dollar and no local support has turned me off that option pretty quickly.

My main use for this box will be to rip about 100 of my kids DVDs to disc, to save the hassle of finding the right disc, load times, and not to mention damage to the discs themselves.

I'd also like to be able to stream (network or external storage) TV shows that I've 'acquired', some of which are in HD formats.

HD Tuners and PVR functionality would really only be a bonus, rather than a requirement, and to be honest I'd rather a cheaper machine without the function (hence currently considering the HDX-1000 for $450 including a 750Gb drive, as opposed for probably $700+ for a no drive version of the upcoming Tvico).

Andrew - you might want to consider the beyonwiz H1. It's a PVR and media streamer without the HDD (which means it's more of a STB and media streamer than PVR). You can however plug a USB disk into it if you want which makes it a PVR.

The beyonwiz range are good at media streaming, OK with music streaming and lousy at showing photos. For what you are using it for it sounds fine.

[dRdoS7]

Hi,

My 5c (not in any order):

1. 2 HD tuners

2. Gigabit network

3. User configurable file jumps forward & backward

4. Remote that can also learn basic functions of other devices (TV & amp - on/off volume, mute)

5. Blueray playback & recording

6. Remote wake & sleep from other devices

7. Able to access other same devices to set timers (maybe via a web interface)

8. EPG from EIT & XML file/s

9. Internal HD

10. USB ports front & back

11. DV port, to record, view, & control DV camera

12. Memory card slots

13. Play MP3

14. Able to transfer files to storage after recording for shared usage

15. Easy access to menu functions without going through multiple sub-menus

16. Timeshifting live TV

I'm working on the assumption there'd be 2 of these and a NAS with lots of storage room hidden somewhere.

And of course, must cost no more than $330, $425 tops!!

dRdoS7

[AndrewW]

Andrew - you might want to consider the beyonwiz H1. It's a PVR and media streamer without the HDD (which means it's more of a STB and media streamer than PVR). You can however plug a USB disk into it if you want which makes it a PVR.

The beyonwiz range are good at media streaming, OK with music streaming and lousy at showing photos. For what you are using it for it sounds fine.

Thanks, I had a bit of a read, but it seems a bit overpriced (and there seem to be a few problems with it as well).

I'm pretty much settled on the HDX-100. $450 delivered with a 750Gb pre-installed is a pretty good price considering the functionality.

[tonymy01]

Overpriced compared to?

The H1 is effectively as good a HD-PVR as the other Beyonwiz series, albeit stuck with only a single tuner. The PVR aspect of the Beyonwiz series is superb, the media playing is pretty good.

But if you want a media player and not a PVR, don't bother getting a Beyonwiz.

Regards

[AndrewW]

Overpriced compared to?

Sorry, wasn't intending to offend anyone ...

Overpriced considering it retails for $700 and doesn't come with a hard drive (and you would need to buy an external drive to use the PVR functionality).

And considering that I've read quite a few reviews stating that the supported video formats are quite limited.

The H1 is effectively as good a HD-PVR as the other Beyonwiz series, albeit stuck with only a single tuner. The PVR aspect of the Beyonwiz series is superb, the media playing is pretty good.

But if you want a media player and not a PVR, don't bother getting a Beyonwiz.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I am primarily after a media player, PVR functionality would just be a bonus, and I'd be happy not to have it if it reduces the overall cost.

[renura]

Hi Guys,

Thank you all for the replies.

Please let's not turn this into this player versus the other, I am mainly interested in what features/functionality you guys value most amongst the main categories of devices I mentioned in the fist post.

1. PVR (eg of features, single/dual tuner, timeshifting, internal/external HHD, copy/move media to and from it, AV outputs, AV inputs, interface, EPG, etc)

2. NMP (eg wireless, wired, with/without Hard drive, audio/video playback, 1080p, 1080i, H.264, mkv, vob, iso, DTS, etc)

3. a single solution box for the living room (all of the above together and more?)

Cheers

Renura

[tonymy01]

Overpriced considering it retails for $700 and doesn't come with a hard drive (and you would need to buy an external drive to use the PVR functionality).

And considering that I've read quite a few reviews stating that the supported video formats are quite limited.

It is only $299 for the H1. The P1 is $799 and that is with a HDD and dual tuners.

That is why I am suprised you said it was overpriced, as the H1 is the unit without a HDD and is reasonably cheap.

Hi Renura, I think something like the DP-H1 with a better chipset (Sigma 863X or 865X) would be nice (the 862X is still quite capable, but they are running out of puff for sexy gui's etc due to limited RAM and flash memory).

Regards

[AndrewW]

It is only $299 for the H1. The P1 is $799 and that is with a HDD and dual tuners.

That'll teach me for believing cnet

Hi Renura, I think something like the DP-H1 with a better chipset (Sigma 863X or 865X) would be nice (the 862X is still quite capable, but they are running out of puff for sexy gui's etc due to limited RAM and flash memory).

I agree with this.

Especially when you want to be able to do something like this with the device (and I do ...)

[drubie]

After having played with a few of these devices, I'm not sure I'd be that keen on one that you can't dump files over the network onto it if it has an attached HDD - pulling that out of the rack/cabinet/cupboard just to update it would be a PITA.

I suppose the real advantage is that the device is "always on" and you don't have to worry about starting up other things to get at your media, but I reckon the cheap little NAS boxes (which you *can* dump files onto) are far more useful, with the media player not really needing any local storage at all. At least, that's how I run now (NAS on 24/7, media player turned on when required) and I'm really impressed with how easy it is.

[renura]

After having played with a few of these devices, I'm not sure I'd be that keen on one that you can't dump files over the network onto it if it has an attached HDD - pulling that out of the rack/cabinet/cupboard just to update it would be a PITA.

Not sure I understand what you mean, are you saying that all these devices should have a Hard Drive in or attached to them?

[drubie]

Not sure I understand what you mean, are you saying that all these devices should have a Hard Drive in or attached to them?

No - more that if the device has a HDD, it should be running some kind of network service so you can put files on it without removing it from the rack. i.e. it should be running FTP or Samba or something. So that when you dump your pictures from your digital camera onto a laptop or download something from itunes, you can just drag it over to the network share without getting out of your chair.

I know it can be done, because the tiny little NSLU2 and similar devices can do it. While they can't do media playback, a storage-less and very cheap media player in the rack can do that.

Surely a box that had a media chip in it, a HDD and was running network server software would be the perfect device.

i.e. a mashup of a NAS and a media player in a single box without having to build it yourself like a HTPC or hack it together from second hand bits or whatever. Like a lot of people on this forum, I've got something pretty close to this now but it took a lot of work digging through forums and hacking on PHP to get something useable and the money I've wasted on trying to get a workable HTPC that was usable by a human really burned me on the concept.

Now, if someone else did the work and charged $200 + HDD cost for something like a Syabas HD based box that was smart enough to act like a NAS, could run your torrents or paid downloads in the background and ran on 10 watts rain or shine, it'd be a winner.

IMHO I don't think anything like that would really be of interest to anyone other than a geek like me unless it had an Apple sticker on it, because there are a lot of people out there still scratching their heads over digital set top boxes.

[byron1503559589]

No - more that if the device has a HDD, it should be running some kind of network service so you can put files on it without removing it from the rack. i.e. it should be running FTP or Samba or something. So that when you dump your pictures from your digital camera onto a laptop or download something from itunes, you can just drag it over to the network share without getting out of your chair.

Exactly. I'm thinking of wiring the whole house for component distribution so that I can watch my PVR, XBMC, 360 in other rooms, but if all files (HDTV, XVID) are network accesible this is no longer necessary. Having an NMP in each room is probably cheaper/easier than wiring a whole house. I'm currently using XBMC for this.

The XBMC/360 is mainly for media playback from the media pc.

I'm moving away from the PVR model to media PC that does file serving and HD PVR work, so I can put an NMP in each room and stream files from the media pc (whether it be HDTV or other material).

Therefore any PVR would need to have some way of accessing it's files from the network so this client/server model would work.

I don't have a HTPC and would rather have all things in the HT room as appliances that access the media pc.

B

[drubie]

I'm moving away from the PVR model to media PC that does file serving and HD PVR work, so I can put an NMP in each room and stream files from the media pc (whether it be HDTV or other material).

Yep. Although, having thought about it and after having lots of success over the last week with an NSLU2 having replaced the old noisy desktop as a media server (other than live tv) I'm really thinking a couple of EEEPC's would basically do the trick as roaming clients. If one of the digital picture frame manufacturers made a wireless version with a battery, I'd be all over it, but I suspect it would be expensive enough that a solid state based notebook like the EEEPC would be competitive with it.

Although, the real attraction for me about NMP's is that they are "no fuss" - plug them in like any A/V item, set up the initial network stuff and walk away. I guess you'd lose that with an EEEPC.

[JaseMedia]

Just found this thread. I have most of what is being asked for here from my system using MythTv, but its not an off the shelf solution unfortunately and has taken some configuring and many hours troubleshooting problems. My setup is basically:

Network Fileserver(cheap)

- Linux (Centos 5 with Samba)

- data stored on 2 x WD SATA(AV) 500GB in RAID1

- OS installed on seperate SATA drive

- 1GB NIC

Main HTPC and MythTv Backend/Frontend

- MythDora 5 (MythTv on Fedora 8)

- Leadtek Winfast DTV2000H tuner card

- Nvidia AGPx8 FX5200 graphics card(no fan = quiet)(DVI, S-Video & VGA out)

- Has infra red remote for normal navigation and a wireless keyboard with trackball for when I need to play with things!

- SPDIF out to my Yamaha 5.1 amp

- Uses the new WD "AV" SATA drive(very quiet and designed to be run 24/7)

I have a couple of Linksys WRT54GL routers reflashed with DD-WRT firmware(Linux again!), one acts as an internet gateway and DHCP server, the other is a wireless access point for the LAN(for when I want to get on with my laptop etc.). The Fileserver and mythtv box are wired to the network for reliability(I ran RJ45 cable from my office which contains the fileserver to the other rooms.)

I also have a window box on the network which I use for ripping and encoding video etc. I then copy the resulting video to the Fileserver and its automatically accessible by MythTv. All(well mostly all) my DVD's are saved as .iso files - MythTv plays them no worries and if I ever need to make a copy back to DVD disc, it takes 5 min to burn and spit one out!

I am about to buy an old xBox (<$100) and configure it to be a MythTv front end for my bedroom. This is the only missing piece of the puzzle so far. Oh besides a large flat screen HD TV - but I'm looking at them this weekend!

As mentioned, this is far from an off the shelf solution, but its very rewarding to sit back and look at a system you have configured yourself that does pretty much whatever you could want from your home theatre(I can even surf the net!). I'm also not restricted by the hardware - if I want to upgrade to better tuner card I can(I plan to have a play around with satellite TV cards soon), bigger hard drives, add a blu ray player(again coming soon), add more software features etc. all relatively cheaply(if you dont count the man hours in configuration and troubleshooting!)

[chatham]

FTP ability, and file recording format like .TS or .MPG is a must for me, as is gigabit ethernet, followed by easy-to-use GUI.