Channel Nine Killing Australian Television

[Marcus1974]

Dear Minister,

You are no doubt aware that the copyright case brought by Channel 9 against EPG provider IceTV was yesterday decided in Channel 9's favour, & the result of this is that IceTV is no longer allowed to carry program data for Channel 9 in their EPG service. This is a massive inconvenience to the Australian public & begs the question why isn't this data freely provided by the networks as a license condition?

I am aware that the networks have agreed to transmit their data in their signal, however they have placed restrictions on the devices that are allowed to use the data.

I'm a member of the leading Australian forum about Windows Media Center (http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/ - forum membership is around 53,500 users) - it is a part of the Windows operating system that allows a PC to act as a digital TV recorder. At the moment Windows Media Center can only receive its electronic program guide by downloading it from the Internet. In most countries around the world, Microsoft is allowed to compile & supply the data as the stations are obliged to provide it, however in Australia, they have been blocked from doing so by the networks under the guise of copyright infringement. Up until now, IceTV has provided a 3rd party service to fill the gap, but now that service is under threat.

The next version of Windows Media Center (currently in beta testing) can make use of electronic program data in the broadcast (in the same way that Channel 7's new Tivo device can), however, because Window Media Center can skip forward in blocks of time (usually 30 seconds) as well as fast forward, it is not allowed to use the data, as per FreeTVs CEO Julie Flynn's November 2007 letter to the Australian Digital Suppliers Industry Forum, "Broadcasters are not authorising the use of the programs listing data in PVRs where 'ad-skip' functionality goes beyond a maximum fast forward speed of x60; broadcasters reserve their rights with respect to those suppliers."

Section 111 of the Copyright Amendment Act 2006 legalises time-shifting of broadcast content. It doesn't contain any restrictions on how the time-shifted content can be played back, so how can FreeTV place restrictions on devices that play back content in a way that is perfectly legal? They are effectively locking out a number of legal devices from using the only legitimate EPG available. Isn't this a textbook restraint of trade? It clearly favours the devices promoted by the broadcasters & their related entities (Channel 7's Tivo & Foxtel's IQ & IQ2) over other devices, so why are they allowed to restrict the data in such a way?

On a related note, can you explain why the following clauses were removed from the Broadcasting Services Act (Schedule 2, Part 3, Clause 7) on 04/05/2007?

(2B) Each commercial television broadcasting licence (other than a licence allocated under subsection 40(1)) is also subject to the condition that the licensee will provide information to another commercial television broadcasting licensee:

(a) in a timely manner; and

( at no cost; and

© in a form (and accompanied by any necessary digital systems information) that reasonably enables its inclusion in an electronic program guide; if required to do so by that other licensee for the purpose of compiling information for an electronic program guide.

(2C) Each commercial television broadcasting licence (other than a licence allocated under subsection 40(1)) is also subject to the condition that the licensee will provide information to a national broadcaster (within the meaning of Schedule 4):

(a) in a timely manner; and

( at no cost; and

© in a form (and accompanied by any necessary digital systems information) that reasonably enables its inclusion in an electronic program guide; if required to do so by that national broadcaster for the purpose of compiling information for an electronic program guide.

(2D) For the purposes of the application of subclause (2B) to information provided to a commercial television broadcasting licensee, electronic program guide has the same meaning as in subclause 6(24) of Schedule 4.

(2E) For the purposes of the application of subclause (2C) to information provided to a national broadcaster, electronic program guide has the same meaning as in subclause 19(24) of Schedule 4.

I look forward to hearing how the Australian Government is going to help the public over the interests of commercial TV license holders.

This is a Letter from a user over at www.XPmediacenter.com.au

Is is in response to the channel nine vs IceTV court case and and complete lack of competition in the market place.

I'd start reading the below link from Page 15 onwards.

http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/...pyright-14.html

If after reading this you feel that Channel Nine is effectively killing any progress for the future of Australian Television then come on board and help us spread the word and hopefully make someone listen.

http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/...pg-data-oz.html

Edited June 26, 2008 by Marcus1974

[AndrewW]

To be honest I gave up on FTA TV ages ago.

Anything I need/want to watch is freely available for download, and the best bit is the ads are already removed

[digitalj]

To be honest I gave up on FTA TV ages ago.

Anything I need/want to watch is freely available for download, and the best bit is the ads are already removed

you mean ads were never put in to start with

[jayweb]

To be honest I gave up on FTA TV ages ago.

Anything I need/want to watch is freely available for download, and the best bit is the ads are already removed

+1

The same government "in their infinite wisdom" now cannot get their act together my local council says it may be 2013 before we get digital TV in our area (blackspot).

So pay the extra broadband allowance and watch programs in my own time.

Media streaming =

[DrP]

To be honest I gave up on FTA TV ages ago.

Same here. One can only put up with so much.

[digitalj]

it's a really stupid decision, what next? Will 9 start suing tvtonight.com.au because it provides data up to 14 days in advance?

[jchowland]

Same here. One can only put up with so much.

Yep, I really don't have any problems with BitTorrent or downloading in a not-quite-so-legally way any more. None whatsoever. Australia has to be just about the only country where it is somehow acceptable to delay, pull and disrupt our viewing. They really do treat us as some sort of second-class citizens who should be greatful they go so far out of their way to broadcast a logo with a tidbit of decade old content.

[tonymy01]

Great thread over there on XPMedia Centre, but I am getting a little angered at ExtremePCs constant defence of the Nine case (but I guess he has not stated anything incorrect, he is just taking the Nine side of the law). As stated by Rob & Glen over there, Nine is a PUBLIC broadcaster, and as a public broadcaster, Australia is free to watch what is broadcast by them. The broadcast licence should contain clauses that state that for a digital broadcast, public access is also provided to all title & time information to enable anyone to determine what program is on at what time.

If an innovative company wants to value add by providing an independant compilation of program synopses, actor info, repeat flags, category flags etc, then we as consumers have a choice and a right to choose a value add service like this. Each broadcaster sending tidbits of Now&Next, sometimes 1day, sometimes 3day, sometimes 7day, 128char truncated short descriptions rather than using the extended event description (which can support approx 1400 chars or so), Benny Hin all Sunday (used to be a common Ten bug), poor HD information etc is not my idea of a very good service to enable me, from my loungechair, to determine what television show is on using what is essentially part of the DVB-T standard (and has been for years) standard features (EIT info). Nine is trying to knock us back into the analogue age, when the Government is (well, the last one was) pushing to get analogue switched off asap and a move to digital. Digital means EIT data minimum, and that caters for perfectly functional 7day EPG from all broadcasters without having to channel surf to datafill each channel up even.

The whole thing stinks to hell, and I don't know who to turn to or what to do to relieve my despair about this whole rediculous situation Nine has caused.

It certainly impacts a LOT more than just Media Centre owners, even a humble STB (non-recording) could take advantage of 3rd party EPG data if the developers so-wished. The issue with the Media Centre argument I read above, while a good argument, keeps talking about "recording show recording show". I don't record shows. I timeshift shows to watch them at a convenient time for me. I work silly hours, and cannot watch shows live, so I am simply timeshifting them to times that are more convenient for me. How is this impacting broadcaster revenue, I am watching MORE of their shows than years ago when I wacked a 4hour tape in the VCR in long play, and with the same quality video and audio that was broadcast thanks to the wonders of a PVR. If a piece of software (ICE Interactive, TEDs for the Topfield 5K, PerlTGD for the 5K etc) can tell me when my favourite shows are on, this makes it even easier to be able to catch my shows, esp when some of them are later at night and get shuffled around every week.

Why oh- why can't we have the UK solution, which is that approx 7 days EPG is broadcast for ALL channels? It doesn't help ICEs case much, but makes anyone owning a DVB-T STB or PVR or media centre experience a whole lot nicer. And lets ditch the EIT 250byte short event (name+description) and take maximum advantage of what the DVB-T extended EIT can provide (approx 1400 characters, more synopsis info etc). The ALLCAPS FROM NEIN was getting very annoying when I used to use the FTA Now&Next.

Regards

[fredofrog]

Nine is entitled to protect its copyrighted material as much as anyone else.

The fact its a FTA service doesn't mean you can copy material without permission

The ICE service was (is) not giving a critism for journalistic puposes of the Nine Guide but rather emulating it with a substantial part of it

The judgement in my view is right, however, the people (US investment bankers) who control nine should be working with the small players like ICE to improve their non existent service instead of taking it to the courts. In saying that, I'm sure 7 and 10 were happy with the outcome as part of Free TV Australia.

At least seven are moving forwards with Tivo and 10 offer some alternative programming now (not when the law makes but now)

[OzRob]

Nine is entitled to protect its copyrighted material as much as anyone else.

Absolutely. That is not in dispute. And they have done this to the letter of the law.

What is in dispute is the nature of the material they are claiming copyright over. Should a TV station really be able to have absolute control over the information about what show is on and when? This company has been granted a license to use publically owned broadcast spectrum in order to provide a service. It makes a lot of money out of its license to use public resources - much, much more than it paid to get that license. IMO the list of what and when shows will be broadcast over this publically owned resource should be made freely available to that public. This recent decision is not really about copyright. It's about Nine trying to maintain its monopoly on the supply of guide information - not just for Nine but for all channels (you did know that Nine owns the company that supplies the data for all printed and legal online TV guides?) - and to control what upcoming features and sevices based around digital TV that we, the public, have access to (the EPG will be the portal to many of these features). Nine wants to kill IceTV not because it's worried about the copying of a list, it wants to kill it because it's a threat to Nine's current monopoly and possible future revenue streams. Ultimately, it justs wants to get rid of some perceived competition. And when that's allowed to happen, we as consumers suffer.

/rant off

[DigitalObserver]

Astute commentary OzRob.

The Commonwealth owns the spectrum and manages it for our benefit and on our behalf.

There should be conditions applied by LAW to the annual renewal of the licence:

My list includes:

Mandatory 7 day EPG

Limited ability to over run published schedules (national interest exemption)

No interruption of end credits (a lot of good shows are ruined when the last scene cuts straight to loud promo/half screen etc. I often just want to savour the credits and the music and let my thoughts linger on the show)

No watermarks. They can place identifyers in the stream

or

Limit watermark in terms of :

% of screen

Opacity

Allow for only short periods after ad breaks (fade in/fade out).

Edit ADD: No promos in programs whether overlays, micro ads, ticker tapes or whatever. All advertising including own counted in maximum allowances!

Any others conditions people would like to ad?

I am an IceTv subscriber and it is a great service providing for a real need at a cost effective investment.

I suspect that a resolution may well be nine buying them out and upping the annual fee when PVR saturation reaches a high enough level!

Edited June 27, 2008 by DigitalObserver

[fredofrog]

Absolutely. That is not in dispute. And they have done this to the letter of the law.

What is in dispute is the nature of the material they are claiming copyright over. Should a TV station really be able to have absolute control over the information about what show is on and when? This company has been granted a license to use publically owned broadcast spectrum in order to provide a service. It makes a lot of money out of its license to use public resources - much, much more than it paid to get that license. IMO the list of what and when shows will be broadcast over this publically owned resource should be made freely available to that public. This recent decision is not really about copyright. It's about Nine trying to maintain its monopoly on the supply of guide information - not just for Nine but for all channels (you did know that Nine owns the company that supplies the data for all printed and legal online TV guides?) - and to control what upcoming features and sevices based around digital TV that we, the public, have access to (the EPG will be the portal to many of these features). Nine wants to kill IceTV not because it's worried about the copying of a list, it wants to kill it because it's a threat to Nine's current monopoly and possible future revenue streams. Ultimately, it justs wants to get rid of some perceived competition. And when that's allowed to happen, we as consumers suffer.

/rant off

Depends what you mean by suffering

I'd think at the moment for most people the loss of FTA versus losing BT would be suffering. I say that since FTA rely on advertising income and the alternate guides and technology allow for ad skipping i.e. FTA revenue source under threat. If there is a monopoly, then the ACCC and the TP Act is the mechanism for resolving such a problem, not copyright infringement and should be statements

Edited June 27, 2008 by fredofrog

[tonymy01]

There is those two words used in the same sentence again "ad-skipping" and "EPG". Sorry, EPG doesn't assist in any way shape or form to ad skip. People will ad skip regardless of EPG. EPG assists to determine more easily what is on the TV without leaving the couch! This *increases* the potential of someone to watch a TV show, especially if the quality of the EPG is high (no UPPERCASE SHOUTING, no lame "MIDDAY MOVIE" titles, decent synopsis, actor, movie year etc).

People without PVRs ad-skip now, by walking out the room during the adverts. People have ad skipped for over 25years, walking out rooms, changing channels and using the humble VCR. Heck, the broadcasters even assist people with VCRs by providing G-code etc codes! If an advert is whitty enough, it will be watched, people, regardless of foot control, PVR control, VCR control etc will still catch a bit of advertising anyway, and with a quality EPG, the potential is *higher* that they catch an advert on a channel if we MUST have the silly EPG and Advertising argument in the same sentence.

This is just a Nine muscle flexing excercise, because they can. Sure, the hidden agenda is about advertising revenue, but we cannot be FORCED to watch advertising by FTA broadcasters, and a collection of times a television show is going to start should be part of the broadcasting act to be freely available, not held close to chest like the broadcasters are suddenly doing now.

This is the digital age, and the broadcasters should embrace that digital gives us a decent EPG. I haven't picked up a newspaper in a few years, and shouldn't have to resort to a newspaper to see what is on TV (esp when the guides in the paper are usually poor, little or no HD channel guides etc). Electronically, I want to be able to seach and see when "The 4400" is on for example, with digital the possibilities of flexibility in the way we use the guide are endless. I suppose I can resort to looking at "YourTV", but I shouldn't have to when DVB (S,T & C) technology is perfectly capable of showing me a decent guide.

Regards

[fredofrog]

At present you are not forced to watch ads, by the licence to broadcast allows for the broadcast of ads. Ad skipping effectively makes advertising invisible

Forced ads are morelikely on the internet such as some US TV sites

A program guide linked to a technology allowing for ad skipping makes no business sense for an advertising to you that broadcaster for its ads (potentially)

You won't have to walk out to miss the ads if FTA doesn't exist. Most people don't move let alone walk out during their fave show

If you want an ad free experience, buy the DVD. You pay for using ABC/SBS via tax and the commercials through watching/ignoring advertising.

Otherwise

I think nine are protecting their patch, but Ice should have negotiated with nine from the start for a legal method of using their (nine's) guide rather than reproduce it

[digitalj]

I have to agree there tonymy01

[Marcus1974]

Exactly....

And if the TV Stations are transmitting the EPG Data with the single then I should be able to access freely along with the TV signal

Before I got IceTV. I would have to buy the Sunday Sun for the TV Guide lift out. Now, thanks to IceTV's EPG I simply press the guide button and there it is...

[digitalj]

At present you are not forced to watch ads, by the licence to broadcast allows for the broadcast of ads. Ad skipping effectively makes advertising invisible

Forced ads are morelikely on the internet such as some US TV sites

A program guide linked to a technology allowing for ad skipping makes no business sense for an advertising to you that broadcaster for its ads (potentially)

You won't have to walk out to miss the ads if FTA doesn't exist. Most people don't move let alone walk out during their fave show

If you want an ad free experience, buy the DVD. You pay for using ABC/SBS via tax and the commercials through watching/ignoring advertising.

Otherwise

I think nine are protecting their patch, but Ice should have negotiated with nine from the start for a legal method of using their (nine's) guide rather than reproduce it

an EPG does not say "there will be an ad in 30 seconds, prepare to stop recording" or "the program will return in 30 seconds, prepare to continue recording"

It's on "playback" when ad-skipping occurs, and because it's on playback, there's no EPG to help you with it.

[fredofrog]

Why would any business in Australia bother if copyright laws were so flexible to allow for the unlawful use of someone elses material.

Let's all clone a book and sell it without paying the publisher, author and anyone else.

[DrP]

I'm not sure what planet you are on fredofrog, but when it comes to avoiding ads on FTA TV, the presence or lack of a VCR, PVR or other recording device with / without an EPG doesn't make much difference. In any household that I happen to be in when the telly is on, the viewers take care of the ads by muting the audio and talking amongst themselves or temporarily flipping to another channel. PVRs etc give the ability to time shift programming (and yes, to skip ads, but that's a point I've addressed already). By preventing the easy widespread use of PVRs the networks are hammering another nail into their coffin.

TV is increasingly becoming an older persons habit. Younger generations are already largely ignoring it and chosing to play games, watch downloaded 'pirated' content, watch DVDs... pretty much anything but watch FTA. You'd think the networks would be falling over each other trying to claw back their future viewers, but all they seem to be doing is alienating them. If that's a decent business case then my arse is blue with pink polkadots.

[DrP]

Let's all clone a book and sell it without paying the publisher, author and anyone else.

Nice try, but not the same. To make it an apples and apples comparison you would have to write a new differently structured, differently worded book. ICE etc are NOT simply cloning (copying) 9's data.

[fredofrog]

Exactly....

And if the TV Stations are transmitting the EPG Data with the single then I should be able to access freely along with the TV signal

Before I got IceTV. I would have to buy the Sunday Sun for the TV Guide lift out. Now, thanks to IceTV's EPG I simply press the guide button and there it is...

Can ICE also reproduce the show in that same signal for free and potential on sell to another customer legally - no

That's called copyright infringement and that's illegal.

[DrP]

ICE is not in the business of providing television programming. ICE is in the business of providing a TV guide. Nice try, but once again you've failed.

ICE makes time shifting workable. Time shifting content is NOT illegal in this country. Try again.

Edited June 27, 2008 by DrP

[fredofrog]

ICE is not in the business of providing television programming. ICE is in the business of providing a TV guide. Nice try, but once again you've failed.

Time shifting content is NOT illegal in this country. Try again.

Someone else guide you mean

What is the time shifting part referring to?

There is no such thing as failure doctor

Edited June 27, 2008 by fredofrog

[DrP]

ICE independently produce their own guide data. Try again. Sooner or later you'll hit upon a truth, but at this point you aren't doing so well.

[Boh]

I also aggree with tonymy01. I especially cant stand the rubbish line that EPGs have anyting to do with add skipping . . who created that fiction.

As for copyright. Isnt it usually used to protect a product from 3rd parties copying it so the owner can reap all of the profits from that product.

In this case with NINE and ICE, Nine do not lose any profit with ICE providing guide data, the broadcasters are allready providing the data for free.

NINE are IDIOTS, who are wasting their and ICEs money on this case for no financal gain except maybe some form of undeserved restitution from ICE . . .

Edited June 27, 2008 by bohemian