funkybits Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) Howdy all, Mate came over with his PS3 last night and the Movie Die Hard 4.0. I was quite excited to see how Blu-Ray compared to DVD on my projector which is only 720P. The picture was much superior and we didn't see one artifact the entire movie, however the sound experience was a let down as I suspect my Older HT equipment may be past it We connected the optical Bitstream to my old Denon DD decoder (my Denon DTS decoder wasn't connected) and we were unable to get Dolby Digital except when selected the "English 2" Soundtrack (which wasn't the normal movie soundtrack as it was reading out the Credits etc.) My decoder would only output the sound as Dolby Prologic. We tried all the sound settings possible on the PS3 to no avail. The Disc Label says DTS-HD. Is it possible that some Blu-Ray titles ONLY come with DTS? Cheers with Beers Johnno Edited June 3, 2008 by funkybits
Guest JohnA Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Howdy all,Mate came over with his PS3 last night and the Movie Die Hard 4.0. I was quite excited to see how Blu-Ray compared to DVD on my projector which is only 720P. The picture was much superior and we didn't see one atifact the entire movie, however the sound experience was a let down as I suspect my Older HT equipment may be past it We connected the optical Bitstream to my old Denon DD decoder (my Denon DTS decoder wasn't connected) and we were unable to get Dolby Digital except when selected the "English 2 "Soundtrack (which wasn't the normal movie soundtrack as it was reading out the Credits etc. My decoder would only output the sound as Dolby Prologic. We tried all the sound settings possible on the PS3 to no avail. The Disc Label says DTS-HD. Is it possible that some Blu-Ray titles ONLY come with DTS? Cheers with Beers Johnno yes
funkybits Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) Wow that's most interesting. Glad I found this out I would have thought the capacity of Blu-Ray would allow enought storage for both DTS & DD formats to be included. I feel sorry for all those people with older amps that only process Dolby Digital Cheers JohnA Edited June 3, 2008 by funkybits
Guest JohnA Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 golden compass is another one that only has dts HD master 7.1 at least thats what is says on the back, i should actually check next i play it
SDL Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Howdy all,Mate came over with his PS3 last night and the Movie Die Hard 4.0. I was quite excited to see how Blu-Ray compared to DVD on my projector which is only 720P. The picture was much superior and we didn't see one atifact the entire movie, however the sound experience was a let down as I suspect my Older HT equipment may be past it We connected the optical Bitstream to my old Denon DD decoder (my Denon DTS decoder wasn't connected) and we were unable to get Dolby Digital except when selected the "English 2 "Soundtrack (which wasn't the normal movie soundtrack as it was reading out the Credits etc. My decoder would only output the sound as Dolby Prologic. We tried all the sound settings possible on the PS3 to no avail. The Disc Label says DTS-HD. Is it possible that some Blu-Ray titles ONLY come with DTS? Cheers with Beers Johnno If you Bitstream the sound then you are relying on the Receiver to decode. The old receiver will be able to pull the DD from the Blu-Ray codec, but you won't get HD sound. To get HD sound you need to decode in the PS3 and send PCM signal to the AVR. It will make a world of difference.
funkybits Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 golden compass is another one that only has dts HD master 7.1at least thats what is says on the back, i should actually check next i play it Would the dts Master 7.1 still be decoded with a generic dts decoder (ie 5.1). I searched on the net and from what I read it indicated that the Poverty Lossy dts stream is still there... From Wikepdia...DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System. It was previously known as DTS++ and DTS-HD. It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio extension, degrades to a 1.5 Mbit/s "core" track which is lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is an optional audio format for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD.
ArthurDent Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I feel sorry for all those people with older amps that only process Dolby Digital So do I as I'd be surprised if AVR's that old would still work
ArthurDent Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Would the dts Master 7.1 still be decoded with a generic dts decoder (ie 5.1). Yes which is why the core qualifies as a required mandatory format.
SDL Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Wow that's most interesting. Glad I found this out I would have thought the capacity of Blu-Ray would allow enought storage for both DTS & DD formats to be included. I feel sorry for all those people with older amps that only process Dolby Digital Cheers JohnA Would the dts Master 7.1 still be decoded with a generic dts decoder (ie 5.1). I searched on the net and from what I read it indicated that the Poverty Lossy dts stream is still there...From Wikepdia...DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System. It was previously known as DTS++ and DTS-HD. It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio extension, degrades to a 1.5 Mbit/s "core" track which is lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is an optional audio format for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. As I said, why are you relying on the AVR decoding? It can only pull down the DD SD track and that is where your problem would be. Don't know what AVR you have but if you can send a PCM signal you won't have a problem. The only time I know a real problem is if you have an old processor like one of mine that is old Dolby ProLogic only, now that is one for the museums.
Guest JohnA Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Would the dts Master 7.1 still be decoded with a generic dts decoder (ie 5.1). I searched on the net and from what I read it indicated that the Poverty Lossy dts stream is still there...From Wikepdia...DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System. It was previously known as DTS++ and DTS-HD. It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio extension, degrades to a 1.5 Mbit/s "core" track which is lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is an optional audio format for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. yes it does as i use my rotel 1098 and it shows up as DTS if you do have an AVR with HDMI in then as SDL said, let the player do the decoding , if you need to use digital then yep, you only get plain jane dts or dd, and to be honest i would love to do a comparison on how much difference in sq there is between these new formats compared to the old ones
funkybits Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) My decoders are almost 10 years old and only have DD 5.1 and DTS, but they were expensive and nice decoders in their day (Denon AVD1000 & AVD2000). I'm very happy with 5.1 and don't see the need to move to 7.1 I also would be interested in how much "better" 7.1 is compared to 5.1 as having 2 extra mono rears doesn't sound like a significant improvement to me. My receiver is also old skool technology having no onboard decoding but 5.1 analogue inputs which I feed with the Denon decoders. The PS3 only has HDMI and Optical Outputs so my only option is to attempt to decode the PS3 bitstream in my decoders (after telling the PS3 which format to decode) Hmm, I have been thinking of building an htpc for a while to deal with the Blu-Ray format, but was hoping a PS3 would be a cheaper way out (especially as the HD tuner add on playTV is just around the corner). So, it looks like my best option is to build an htpc with a soundcard that can deal with all the new fangled HD formats (soundcard with analogue outputs to feed my beloved receiver). At least with a pc, I can swap out the soundcard when a DTS 16.1 arrives Edited June 3, 2008 by funkybits
ArthurDent Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 My decoders are almost 10 years old and only have DD 5.1 and DTS, but they were expensive and nice decoders in their day (Denon AVD1000 & AVD2000). I'm very happy with 5.1 and don't see the need to move to 7.1 I also would be interested in how much "better" 7.1 is compared to 5.1. Having 2 extra mono rears doesn't sound like a significant improvement to me. Yes but the advantage of the new codecs isn't 7.1 (and it is 7.1 not 6.1) instead of 5.1, as most PCM, TrueHD and DTS HD MA tracks are only 5.1 anyway. It's the increased bandwidth/bit rate you get with them and the massive improvement in audio quality compared to DD or DTS.
ArthurDent Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 ...and to be honest i would love to do a comparison on how much difference in sq there is between these new formats compared to the old ones At a recent audio night we compared 640kb/s DD and/or 1.5mb/s DTS to (where possible) PCM, TrueHD and/or DTS HD MA and there wasn't a single person in the room that wasn't astounded by the improvement in audio quality the new formats offer.
funkybits Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) Yes but the advantage of the new codecs isn't 7.1 (and it is 7.1 not 6.1) instead of 5.1, as most PCM, TrueHD and DTS HD MA tracks are only 5.1 anyway. It's the increased bandwidth/bit rate you get with them and the massive improvement in audio quality compared to DD or DTS. Cheers, but is the bandwith improvement really a "massive improvement" ? I know it is technically, but can the human ear really tell when using a "Modest" HT setup (say $1000 amp and $1000 per speaker) or is it just my Dog that can hear 50khz that's getting the benefit Reminds me of when 16 bit CD players were compared to 20 bit and then 1 bit etc. Same goes for oversampling etc etc Buggered if I could hear the difference.. he He Submitted this post before the one prior from Ken was completed. Sounds like I need to go in to HiFi store and check out these new formats (and maybe get my ears checked too) Edited June 3, 2008 by funkybits
SDL Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 My decoders are almost 10 years old and only have DD 5.1 and DTS, but they were expensive and nice decoders in their day (Denon AVD1000 & AVD2000). I'm very happy with 5.1 and don't see the need to move to 7.1 Wow, sorry for suggesting PCM - nearly as old as my HK AVP2
Guest JohnA Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) At a recent audio night we compared 640kb/s DD and/or 1.5mb/s DTS to (where possible) PCM, TrueHD and/or DTS HD MA and there wasn't a single person in the room that wasn't astounded by the improvement in audio quality the new formats offer. but how was this done. Were the levels within 0.1dB? did you do a double blind test? did people know which was playing at the time? sorry, couldn't resist. I suppose not been a HT junkie i am still happy with the sound from my rotel 1098 with my hd dvd player and blu ray player just trying to qualify the justification of throwing away a $4k processor, to purchase a $10k processor if it were 2 channel no probs, but HT....hmmmmmmmm Edited June 3, 2008 by JohnA
ArthurDent Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 but how was this done.Were the levels within 0.1dB? did you do a double blind test? did people know which was playing at the time? sorry, couldn't resist. Of course, yes and no (whatever is applicable) to all of the above and we even wore blindfolds. Actually it was a pretty informal session as we usually leave all the above stuff to A/B's that are so close you might as well toss a coin. I suppose not been a HT junkie i am still happy with the sound from my rotel 1098 with my hd dvd player and blu ray playerjust trying to qualify the justification of throwing away a $4k processor, to purchase a $10k processor if it were 2 channel no probs, but HT....hmmmmmmmm It costs a lot less than that for as long as your player is doing the decoding then you only need an AVR with HDMI to handle the PCM and if you can get multi-channel analog out of the player then any AVR/amp with analog inputs will do.
Guest JohnA Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 yes Ken i hear you, except here are 3 problems with that the 1098 has analogue inputs but bass management on my 2 players is crap that i stopped using it that way the other problem is the xe-1 and the sony blu ray i have to not decode dts HD MA and the biggest problem is i wouldn't get an avr and would want something like the denon avp to replace my 1098
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