Repairing Speakers

I spoke to a repair shop who said they've done about 4 sets of them and have had excellent results. He also mentioned that they were a great speaker and once the work is done they would compare with speakers currently on the market in the 7-8k range. He said that out of all the speakers they repair these ones have the most potential and improve far beyond what one would normally expect.

A few points he made:

The tweeters were crap and would be replaced with some good quality ones

The magnet and basket structure good and would be reused(also re-magnetizing the magnet), apparently Linear Design used two different magnets and these are the larger better quality ones.

Here is what they would do:

4x bass drivers - re magnetize and reuse the basket. New carbon fiber cones, suspension, voice coil, etc.

2x midrange drivers - re magnetize and reuse the basket. New carbon fiber cones, suspension, voice coil, etc.

4x super horns - replace with new high quality tweeters

2x crossover - replace with a new crossover network designed for the speakers

Total cost - $1000

Now as you can see from the photo's these speakers are in our shed which we've turned into a makeshift snooker room. My intention was to spend as little as possible just to get them working for this purpose. But since talking with the repair shop I am interested in improving them as the cabinets are good quality and they have sentimental value.

Now here is the questions

Can I get similar quality by buying all new speakers and a crossover network and replacing them myself at a lower price?

Can I get better quality by buying all new speakers and a crossover network and replacing them myself at a similar price?

Is it simple enough to get right myself, or should I just get the professionals to do it?

cheers

Edited May 28, 2008 by MACCA350

quijibo · May 28, 2008

To be honest what you are pulling out doesn't look all that impressive, but it is too hard to tell from a few photos.

Is there any crossover components inside the box, besides what is attached to the midrange driver?

$1000 isn't a lot for 10 drivers and crossovers, and the effort required to put it together.

You could do it much cheaper if you wanted.

And yes you could probaby make a better speaker yourself... if you know what to do.

Getting the crossover circuits right is the tricky part.

But with a basic level of knowledge and some spare time it isn't too difficult and can be quite interesting.

It really isn't all that hard to make a good speaker.

mr-happy-pants · May 28, 2008

We have a set of speakers in the shed that need some repairs.
Here is what they are

Brand: Linear Design

Model: LD 2403

Impedance: 4 Ohm

Max Music Power: 250W

Sensitivity: 98db/wm

He also mentioned that they were a great speaker and once the work is done they would compare with speakers currently on the market in the 7-8k range.

A few points he made:

The tweeters were crap and would be replaced with some good quality ones

The magnet and basket structure good and would be reused(also re-magnetizing the magnet), apparently Linear Design used two different magnets and these are the larger better quality ones.

Here is what they would do:

4x bass drivers - re magnetize and reuse the basket. New carbon fiber cones, suspension, voice coil, etc.

2x midrange drivers - re magnetize and reuse the basket. New carbon fiber cones, suspension, voice coil, etc.

4x super horns - replace with new high quality tweeters

2x crossover - replace with a new crossover network designed for the speakers

Total cost - $1000

Now as you can see from the photo's these speakers are in our shed which we've turned into a makeshift snooker room. My intention was to spend as little as possible just to get them working for this purpose. But since talking with the repair shop I am interested in improving them as the cabinets are good quality and they have sentimental value.

Now here is the questions

Can I get similar quality by buying all new speakers and a crossover network and replacing them myself at a lower price?

Can I get better quality by buying all new speakers and a crossover network and replacing them myself at a similar price?

Is it simple enough to get right myself, or should I just get the professionals to do it?

cheers

G'day Macca

If I remember correctly (and your photos do support my memory) you have a pair of late 70's/early 80's OEM type speaker boxes that would have been sold with a stereo system.

Lots of size, not as much on sound quality but great Bang for Buck.

I doubt they are 98dB w/1m; more like .5 metre.

You could show us a photo of your xover.

In short, I assisted a friend (more than 1) in a similar dilemma.

Buy replacement parts for all components (yes all) from Jaycar (or similar).

Eg reasonable dome tweeters ~$25 each as an example of price.

Yes, tweeters are crap, they are a basic piezo device (yuck).

Including replacement 3-way xovers (eg Jaycar or similar) I reckon you could do it for about $500-600 for the lot, maybe less.

I doubt very, very, very much you NEED expensive carbon fibre drivers.

Not for what you have said you want ot use them for.

The enclosures look OK, they would be more expensive to replace than all components.

Figure out the litres per box, to suit replacement drivers.

I'll eat my hat if these repaired would sound better than $7k speakers.

$1k would be closer to the mark.

I'll eat 2 hats if they would be better than my Osborn's with Focal drivers & they're no where near $7k a pair.

If it were me, I'd budget about $500, do it all myself, and have a great pair of loud party speakers.

After 15 beers, whose gunna be able to tell the difference? Especially with all that yellin' & singin' goin' on.

All of this is IMHO.

MrHP

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

To be honest what you are pulling out doesn't look all that impressive, but it is too hard to tell from a few photos.
Is there any crossover components inside the box, besides what is attached to the midrange driver?

No, the only Xover component is on the midrange driver

$1000 isn't a lot for 10 drivers and crossovers, and the effort required to put it together.
You could do it much cheaper if you wanted.

And yes you could probaby make a better speaker yourself... if you know what to do.

Getting the crossover circuits right is the tricky part.

But with a basic level of knowledge and some spare time it isn't too difficult and can be quite interesting.

It really isn't all that hard to make a good speaker.

I've always been interested in speaker building and I thought this might be the perfect opportunity to get my feet wet since the cabinets are already built and all I need to work out is the drivers and crossover.

cheers

quijibo · May 28, 2008

One thing to consider, is that if you take the cheap option you probably won't even make a better speaker than this

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DREAM-ACOUSTICS-2-H...1QQcmdZViewItem

and you will probably spend twice as much in the process...

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

G'day Macca
If I remember correctly (and your photos do support my memory) you have a pair of late 70's/early 80's OEM type speaker boxes that would have been sold with a stereo system.

I'm not sure when they were built, but I found the receipts a few weeks ago, If I had them in front of me I could say exactly when and where they were purchaced, but from memory our grandfather purchased them early 90's here in Melbourne for $3500 (inc components)

Lots of size, not as much on sound quality but great Bang for Buck.
I doubt they are 98dB w/1m; more like .5 metre.

I'm only going on what is printed on the cabinet

You could show us a photo of your xover.

All I can find is what is attached to the midrange

In short, I assisted a friend (more than 1) in a similar dilemma.
Buy replacement parts for all components (yes all) from Jaycar (or similar).

Eg reasonable dome tweeters ~$25 each as an example of price.

I'll check out their website

Yes, tweeters are crap, they are a basic piezo device (yuck).

Thanks for the confirmation

Including replacement 3-way xovers (eg Jaycar or similar) I reckon you could do it for about $500-600 for the lot, maybe less.

Sounds closer to what I was prepared to pay

I doubt very, very, very much you NEED expensive carbon fibre drivers.
Not for what you have said you want ot use them for.

Agreed

The enclosures look OK, they would be more expensive to replace than all components.

The enclosures are in very good nick, well looked after and solid. 16mm MDF with 30mm extra on the sides for the pronounced rounded edging. They weigh a ton, thankfully they have castors.

Figure out the litres per box, to suit replacement drivers.

Inside dimentions are:

970x360x360mm = 0.126 cubic meter, 4.439 cubic foot, 125.712 liter

Minus midrange enclosure volume

232x232x135mm = 0.007 cubic meter, 0.257 cubic foot, 7.266 24 liter

Total bass/tweeter(excluding drivers)

118.446 Liters

I'll eat my hat if these repaired would sound better than $7k speakers.
$1k would be closer to the mark.

I'll eat 2 hats if they would be better than my Osborn's with Focal drivers & they're no where near $7k a pair.

If it were me, I'd budget about $500, do it all myself, and have a great pair of loud party speakers.

After 15 beers, whose gunna be able to tell the difference? Especially with all that yellin' & singin' goin' on.

All of this is IMHO.

MrHP

That's why I didn't want to spend that much on them

cheers

Edited May 28, 2008 by MACCA350

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

I've just been trawling through some websites and found some nice, but pricey, speakers like Peerless, Scan Speak, FOUNTEK etc. Would like to go the whole hog(so to speak) but really can't justify it for what I want to use them for.

Ended up checking out Jaycar and found some that may do the job:

12"

8"

tweeter 1 or 2

Total cost about $320

But still need to work out the crossovers

What do you think.........and keep in mind the purpose of them

cheers

geoff888 · May 28, 2008

Looking at the list of this they are going to do to repair the speakers it will no longer sound like the original (which may or may not be a good thing).

Will also eat my hat (if I had one) if it sounds better than $7K speaker. I would not personally waste money on repairing those speakers. Some good vintage speakers are worth repairing. If you like the sound of those speakers and really want to keep them, on the cheap, you can just replace the surrounds from Speakerbits.com in Melbourne and leave everthing else as is. Try and get the exact same material (most likely foam).

For $1000, there are plenty of DIY designs out there than will be in the same vicinity as $10K speakers but they do require alot of time and a little of woodworking know-how and a smidgen of electronic (mainly soldering) skills. If you want real Hi-Fi speakers then I would not buy my drivers from Jaycar. Would look at well know brands of speaker drivers (I have personally used Seas, Scanspeak, Peerless and Vifa which are readily available in Oz). You will find alot of well known speakers use these drivers. eg Vaf Signature series use all Seas drivers, and DC range use Peerless + Vifa Logic.

I also would not use off-the-shelf crossovers in general. Crossovers need to specifically designed for specific drivers targeting specific frequency/phase/impedance response as well as taking into account the operating and notches and dips of the drivers, the size and shape of the front baffle, and cabinet volume. As you can see speaker design is quite complex.

If you have alot of time, try DIY speakers, you might get hooked.

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

One thing to consider, is that if you take the cheap option you probably won't even make a better speaker than this
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DREAM-ACOUSTICS-2-H...1QQcmdZViewItem

and you will probably spend twice as much in the process...

That is a very good point.

The only reasons I would like to repair these ones is that I love the way they look, the AV rack is identical to the speakers and they have great sentimental value to us as they were our Grandfathers who recently passed away. Just standing next to them brings many fond memories.

cheers

mr-happy-pants · May 28, 2008

I've just been trawling through some websites and found some nice, but pricey, speakers like Peerless, Scan Speak, FOUNTEK etc. Would like to go the whole hog(so to speak) but really can't justify it for what I want to use them for.
Ended up checking out Jaycar and found some that may do the job:

12"

8"

tweeter 1 or 2

Total cost about $320

But still need to work out the crossovers

What do you think.........and keep in mind the purpose of them

cheers

Macca

You might be OK matching the 2196 mid with the 2199 woofers, but you'll have to wire up the woofers in parallel (then series resistor them maybe ~3.9 ohms) otherwise they'll drop below 2.5 ohms (oh oh!). If you can keep 'em above 6.5 ohms you'll be laughing!?

Re the tweeters, maybe consider the 2007, as 2 of the 2010 will be too loud for the other components.

They do sell 3 way xovers. Have a look see. Should do what you want, remebering what they're for.

Did someone say beer, pool & fart jokes?

All based on what Jaycar publidh of course.

Be interesting to see what other members think.

$400 could see you up & running. Whacko!

While you're at it, add some front to rear bracing in the box.

MrHP

geoff888 · May 28, 2008

I've just been trawling through some websites and found some nice, but pricey, speakers like Peerless, Scan Speak, FOUNTEK etc. Would like to go the whole hog(so to speak) but really can't justify it for what I want to use them for.
Ended up checking out Jaycar and found some that may do the job:

12"

8"

tweeter 1 or 2

Total cost about $320

But still need to work out the crossovers

What do you think.........and keep in mind the purpose of them

cheers

118L is pretty large volume to use with current modern drivers with it sounding boomy.

Have used Fountek, good ribbon tweeters from China (used by a number of speaker companies) but need well design crossover or else you'll pop the ribbon.

Hard to work out crossovers without measuring equipment, design software, and experience if you really want to get it right. I would search the web for a proven design.

What is their purpose? Party speakers/PA? Seriuos Hi-Fi?

Edited May 28, 2008 by EndoGuy

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

Looking at the list of this they are going to do to repair the speakers it will no longer sound like the original (which may or may not be a good thing).
Will also eat my hat (if I had one) if it sounds better than $7K speaker. I would not personally waste money on repairing those speakers. Some good vintage speakers are worth repairing. If you like the sound of those speakers and really want to keep them, on the cheap, you can just replace the surrounds from Speakerbits.com in Melbourne and leave everthing else as is. Try and get the exact same material (most likely foam).

For $1000, there are plenty of DIY designs out there than will be in the same vicinity as $10K speakers but they do require alot of time and a little of woodworking know-how and a smidgen of electronic (mainly soldering) skills. If you want real Hi-Fi speakers then I would not buy my drivers from Jaycar. Would look at well know brands of speaker drivers (I have personally used Seas, Scanspeak, Peerless and Vifa which are readily available in Oz). You will find alot of well known speakers use these drivers. eg Vaf Signature series use all Seas drivers, and DC range use Peerless + Vifa Logic.

I also would not use off-the-shelf crossovers in general. Crossovers need to specifically designed for specific drivers targeting specific frequency/phase/impedance response as well as taking into account the operating and notches and dips of the drivers, the size and shape of the front baffle, and cabinet volume. As you can see speaker design is quite complex.

If you have alot of time, try DIY speakers, you might get hooked.

He mentioned that the sound would be different, as mentioned they have already done 4 of this model previously. I personally haven't spent much time listening to them previously, so I have no qualms with a different sound. I'm only going off what He has said and He was quite adamant about these particular model having a decent potential.

But as I mentioned these are not for any critical listening, they will only be used in our shed as background music while we are playing pool and getting drunk So really even the $320 for Jaycar replacements is not really warranted, but it's really about the cheapest way to keep them working.

I just realized that I don't really need to replace the tweeters as they still work(even though there not the sweetest of tweeters). So If I take them off the list the total Jaycar spend works out to about $230 less crossovers

What would be the simplest crossover that could do the job?

cheers

mr-happy-pants · May 28, 2008

If you like the sound of those speakers and really want to keep them, on the cheap, you can just replace the surrounds from Speakerbits.com in Melbourne and leave everthing else as is.

G'day EndoGuy

Valid point, but those piezo tweeters are shockers. Small $ would be worth replacing them alone. Also reconing can cost more than better replacements.

I also would not use off-the-shelf crossovers in general. Crossovers need to specifically designed for specific drivers targeting specific frequency/phase/impedance response as well as taking into account the operating and notches and dips of the drivers, the size and shape of the front baffle, and cabinet volume. As you can see speaker design is quite complex.

Off the shelf xovers may suit Macca needs. Gotta be better than only 1 6db cap on a mid-driver & a resistor on piezo horns.!?

If you have alot of time, try DIY speakers, you might get hooked.

Agreed, DIY can be a hepa fun, if'n ya got the time.

geoff888 · May 28, 2008

G'day EndoGuy
Valid point, but those piezo tweeters are shockers. Small $ would be worth replacing them alone. Also reconing can cost more than better replacements.

Hey Mr Happy, yeah replacement surrounds and the adhesives can be expensive probably only reserved for high-end vintage speakers which are still in high demand and quite expensive even after all these years.

MACCA, if you really want real Hi Fi then you have to do it properly. If they're just going to be spare party speakers then I guess it's no biggy.

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

Macca
You might be OK matching the 2196 mid with the 2199 woofers, but you'll have to wire up the woofers in parallel (then series resistor them maybe ~3.9 ohms) otherwise they'll drop below 2.5 ohms (oh oh!). If you can keep 'em above 6.5 ohms you'll be laughing!?

Re the tweeters, maybe consider the 2007, as 2 of the 2010 will be too loud for the other components.

They do sell 3 way xovers. Have a look see. Should do what you want, remebering what they're for.

Great input, looks like I have a plan of action..........although I'll need some more tips on the wiring. I worked part/full time for an Electrician for about 5 years years ago and did the Electrical Pre-App Cert(also started the Cert in Basic Electronics, but left after about 8months) so I'm not to bad with terminating and soldering but will need help nutting out the components to use

Have you used or spoken to anyone who has used Jaycar speakers before?

Did someone say beer, pool & fart jokes?

Time for a GTG

All based on what Jaycar publidh of course.
Be interesting to see what other members think.

$400 could see you up & running. Whacko!

While you're at it, add some front to rear bracing in the box.

I had thought about adding some front to back bracing on either side of the middle 12" driver (basically 2 braces at about 1/3 and 2/3 points)

Although not really necessary for what I will use them for

cheers

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

Hey Mr Happy, yeah replacement surrounds and the adhesives can be expensive probably only reserved for high-end vintage speakers which are still in high demand and quite expensive even after all these years.
MACCA, if you really want real Hi Fi then you have to do it properly. If they're just going to be spare party speakers then I guess it's no biggy.

100% agree, If these were the only speakers we had I would probably spend the extra cash and have them done properly.

All that would be wasted on a few pissed nutters slappin a few balls around

So it's either this or use the TV

cheers

mr-happy-pants · May 28, 2008

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?I...mp;SUBCATID=534

Would do the job

Total rebuild would be less than $500

What do you get for $500, even talking 2nd hand party speakers. Not much I'm guessing. But I've been wrong before.

Well Macca, looks like you've got all the answers. Maybe just need a decision.

Maybe do do some research on the 2nd hand market.

Good luck with it.

MrHP

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

Also forgot to mention that these cabinet's are sealed.

Based on those Jaycar drivers listed above, which crossover network would you suggest

I was thinking about this one for $34.95 each

3 Way Crossover - 12db 100W
- Crossover frequencies 700Hz, 3.5kHz

- 12db per octave roll off

- 100WRMS

- 8 Ohm

- Priced per unit

Although would I need anything more than this cheaper one at $16.50 each

3 Way Spaker Crossover 800Hz / 5kHz
- Crossover frequencies 800Hz and 5,000Hz

- 6dB/octave rolloff

- 40 watts RMS

- 8 ohms

- Priced per unit.

cheers

geoff888 · May 28, 2008

My feeling is that those woofers from Jaycar won't be sensitive enough for your speakers without alot of padding down on the tweeter and mid, also they have a round frame compared to your square. Try Wagner (Wes Components), check the speaker section. There is a 100W square frame 12" woofer and 8" woofer which have high enough sensitivity cos the surrounds are foam.

Try here for basic crossover calculator.

May need and L-pad resistors to attenuate the mid + tweeter.

Wiring the woofers in parallel will make them more sensitive but more difficult to drive.

Use non-polar electrolytic caps (less $$) and non inductive resistors like these.

Edited May 28, 2008 by EndoGuy

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?I...mp;SUBCATID=534
Would do the job

Total rebuild would be less than $500

What do you get for $500, even talking 2nd hand party speakers. Not much I'm guessing. But I've been wrong before.

Well Macca, looks like you've got all the answers. Maybe just need a decision.

Maybe do do some research on the 2nd hand market.

Good luck with it.

MrHP

I noticed the power rating differences on those crossovers, do you think I'd need to go for that one?

Also wrt the 2nd hand market, are there any good places to start looking apart from Ebay.

BTW thanks for the info

cheers

geoff888 · May 28, 2008

Also forgot to mention that these cabinet's are sealed.
Based on those Jaycar drivers listed above, which crossover network would you suggest

I was thinking about this one for $34.95 each

cheers

If you want to keep it simple go for the $35 premade (cheaper if you made your own).

As I said most likely need resistors to pad down the mid + tweeter (esp the tweeter)

mr-happy-pants · May 28, 2008

Also forgot to mention that these cabinet's are sealed.
Based on those Jaycar drivers listed above, which crossover network would you suggest

I was thinking about this one for $34.95 each

Although would I need anything more than this cheaper one at $16.50 each

The reason I considered the xover I did was regarding the freq graphs on the Jaycar site, tweeter needs to xover ~ 4.5 - 5khz IMHO

Also 12db/octave roll offs ie less low freq energy going into your tweeters (what's that burning smell?)

Re 2nd hand market, ebay can be quite good at that end of the market $ wise, but also can be risky re condition of speakers if you can't scratch and smell 1st

Buy quality if you can 2nd hand, otherwise what's the point in buying someone else's problem?

MrHP

geoff888 · May 28, 2008

I noticed the power rating differences on those crossovers, do you think I'd need to go for that one?
Also wrt the 2nd hand market, are there any good places to start looking apart from Ebay.

BTW thanks for the info

cheers

Power ratings have little meaning.

1200Hz / 5kHz is way too high IMO. The $35 one was more appropriate (700Hz/3.5kHz).

Edited May 28, 2008 by EndoGuy

mr-happy-pants · May 28, 2008

If you want to keep it simple go for the $35 premade (cheaper if you made your own).
As I said most likely need resistors to pad down the mid + tweeter (esp the tweeter)

G'day Endo

If Macca parallel the woofers he should get ~94 - 95db, then if series a quality resistor he may drop ~1db

He could also series the tweeters do lower SPL, impact on xover would be impacted though. Forget that.

Macca, maybe build them, see what it sounds like, then add resistive networks to mids and tweeter circuits only as required.

Still reckon oughta brace the boxes while they're empty. Wood and glue is still cheap. No-one will see it.

$ short cuts on xovers never works. Buy what you can afford. DIY xovers is hard if not done before. Lotta stuffin' around too.

FWiW

MrHP

MACCA350 · May 28, 2008

So what are those Wagner Speakers worth?

I had a look through and found the SQ8-50 and SQ12-100. May give them a buzz and see tomorrow, but if they are more costly the Jaycar ones will fit in the cutouts(based on their pdf)

Noticed that that $35 Xover also has a 12db slope.

I'd like to have a go at making a Xover but I think that would be a tad ambitious as I do not understand what effect components or how they should be connected so I would not e able to design one myself :unsure: But I have no qualms soldering it all together

Really appreciate the input guys.

cheers

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