2(.1) Ch Preamp/digital Processor

[OzMillsy]

Gday all,

I've asked this question elsewhere, but am starting a new thread here, as it's worthy of it's own discussion. I've been impressed with the improved features of current gen AVR's. Customisable cross over points per channel, digital EQ, etc etc. I'd really like to see some of these features creep into the audio only space. ie: a 2 ch pre, focussed on optimising 2 ch music play for digital sources.

CD's/SACD's/MLP/FLAC/MP3, the list goes on. There are alot of different sources of digital music. Being able to digitally process these formats, such that you could apply EQ and crossovers in the digital space, apply de-jitter mechanisms and pass the digital info onto high quality DACs, then also employ class A design analog output stages. Is it unreasonable to want all these features from a single device?

These are the features I'd like to see.

- Provide multiple digital inputs

- Process all common digital music formats.

- De-jitter the incoming bitstream

- Apply digital parametric eq and room correction features if I want to (or option to bypass)

- Apply customisable cross over points for integration with a sub

- Convert the digital stream to analog using top end DACs

- class A analog output stages

- volume control

- Provide both balanced and unbalanced analog outputs for L/R+sub

- Provide HT bypass for L/R+sub, for integration into a 5/7.1 system

What's around that ticks some of these boxes? Is there anything that does them all, but is 2 channel only? (ie: not a HT processor aswell)

[Spearmint]

Check out the Tact RCS2.2XP

[betty boop]

firstly I'd ask. Are you chasing sound quality or features ?

have you demoed anything to decide & establish what it is yoru chasing ?

important as everything costs. and important to knwo for yourself why it is you have come to the conclusion that all that is in the list is necessary. for instance re class A output stages. are we talking pre's here or power amps ? and if you find an item that doesn have class A output stages and produces a better or the required result eg with say 5.1 gear ..does that mean it is still dis-regarded ? and additionally you should know everything is class A to a certain point and hence they are called class AB. yet some cheat and call them class A ....well to the first 0.5watt !

additionally there is the possiblity you could put together a "one with the lot" either as a system or component and yet perhaps the possiblity to achive the same or better with one stripped back and simple and a lot cheaper....and you wouldnt want to miss on that woudl you ?

anyways as been mentioned already

3 names come to mind on digital processors

deqx

tact

meridian

all three have a heritage of digital processing and with 2ch only products in their range and you would be able to put togetehr a system to achive above. check their websites and you will find. they however cost serious money.

keep in mind we are not talking here pure analog pre-amps, integrated or cd players with a dac built in. if thats all you want there is a myraid of products out there from built in to separates

alternatively there is the denon avp-a1hd av pre-pro which will do all that you have listed above.

[OzMillsy]

Check out the Tact RCS2.2XP

The 2.2 MINI model looks to tick most of the boxes aswell. Impressive products. Thanks for this link Spearmint.

[OzMillsy]

firstly I'd ask. Are you chasing sound quality or features ?

Sound quality.

Al, it should be noted that at this point in time, I dont believe there is a product that doesnt everything I want, at a price point I can afford.

That doesnt stop me exploring the options and pushing the boundaries.

In a short while, I will be in the market for a 2 ch analog preamp (with ht bypass) and a good quality cdp (with internal dac).

But in the meantime, if better options turn up at a realistic price point, I'll explore them aswell.

[OzMillsy]

But in the meantime, if better options turn up at a realistic price point, I'll explore them aswell.

So, how about we start with 2 che preamp options, with built a built in DAC with multiple digital inputs, and a sensible price tag.

Something that can be used to hookup a cd transport. And also a sqeezebox type streaming device.

The Stello DP200 ? Others?

[betty boop]

So, how about we start with 2 che preamp options, with built a built in DAC with multiple digital inputs, and a sensible price tag.

Something that can be used to hookup a cd transport. And also a sqeezebox type streaming device.

The Stello DP200 ? Others?

why would you it would only limit your options ..

an alternative might be a convetntional 2ch pre-amp and there is a mountain of them with ht byapss - check the htfaq sticky for a list. and jsut run a cd player with built in dac as you said you intended. some cd players have ditial inputs models from quad, cambridge audio come in mind.

[Spearmint]

So, how about we start with 2 che preamp options, with built a built in DAC with multiple digital inputs, and a sensible price tag.

Something that can be used to hookup a cd transport. And also a sqeezebox type streaming device.

The Stello DP200 ? Others?

Here in lies the problem, cheap does not always pertain to good, and some of the cheaper 2ch pre’s I’ve heard, a few of the newer AVR’s would be on a par if not better IMO.

One thing I learnt when I started to get into 2ch, the pre can have quite an impact on the results. Call it colouration, or detailed, or natural, or whatever, but if you want to get the best out of your system, don’t compromise on the pre.

[OzMillsy]

why would you it would only limit your options ..

Yes, that's the issue here. Like I said elsewhere, there really is a lack of options really. Which is kinda strange.

I like to push the boundaries.

The thing is mate, when you look at it, it isnt an unreasonable/earth shattering feature list. I believe it's just a matter of time, before more options trickle into the market. Especially if the up take of digital streaming lossless formats becomes more prevalent.

an alternative might be a convetntional 2ch pre-amp and there is a mountain of them with ht byapss - check the htfaq sticky for a list. and jsut run a cd player with built in dac as you said you intended. some cd players have ditial inputs models from quad, cambridge audio come in mind.

Yeah, already looking into this, as you say, covered elsewhere .

Edited May 19, 2008 by OzMillsy

[OzMillsy]

Here in lies the problem, cheap does not always pertain to good, and some of the cheaper 2ch pre’s I’ve heard, a few of the newer AVR’s would be on a par if not better IMO.

What's cheap to 1 person, isnt to the next. It's all relative.

A quality DAC costs what, 2k upwards? A good analog pre costs anywhere from what, 3k upwards?

Combine the 2, and add some extra functionality in (because you can), can something "sonically pure" be delivered for 5k ?

Is this cheap? To many, no. But maybe a very good solution in the overall scheme of things?

[betty boop]

Yes, that's the issue here. Like I said elsewhere, there really is a lack of options really. Which is kinda strange.

I like to push the boundaries.

The thing is mate, when you look at it, isnt isnt an unreasonable/earth shattering feature list. I believe it's just a matter of time, before more options trickle into the market. Especially if the up take of digital streaming lossless formats becomes more prevalent.

Yeah, already looking into this, as you say, covered elsewhere .

it is quite a feature list if you compare it to what a typical 2ch pre-amp comes on board. which is switching, vol control, remote, a ht byapss and a second set of pre-outs if your lucky. thats about all you can mange in the analog domain. which is what these devices are pure analog for the sound path and some digital control at most for niceties liek remote control switchign etc.

if your after something like the full feature list. youd have to look at the deqx, tact, meridian type products as suggested.

for many people the analog features is about what they need. for myself I have no use for a dac in the pre for instance. have cd plaeyrs and sacd player with dacs built in and a turntable.

if jsut need a dac for a squeeze box, can always get an add on one. probably quality wise liekly to be better than the card type thrown in with some pre's /integrateds anyways. theres a huge range of add on dacs, from quite affordable to high end and from physically compact the size of a transformer to full component width. the choice is yours.

[Spearmint]

What's cheap to 1 person, isnt to the next. It's all relative.

A quality DAC costs what, 2k upwards? A good analog pre costs anywhere from what, 3k upwards?

Combine the 2, and add some extra functionality in (because you can), can something "sonically pure" be delivered for 5k ?

Is this cheap? To many, no. But maybe a very good solution in the overall scheme of things?

I’ve heard a $500 2ch pre (no features mind you) hold it’s own against $4~5k pre’s in a comparison we did some time ago. What you’re looking for in a pre is IMO not achievable on a budget, since many of the newer AVR’s can and do hold their own against many of the equivalent priced 2ch pre’s.

[OzMillsy]

I’ve heard a $500 2ch pre (no features mind you) hold it’s own against $4~5k pre’s in a comparison we did some time ago.

Which one was that? Was it a DIY kit like the Transcendant Grounded Grid?

What you’re looking for in a pre is IMO not achievable on a budget, since many of the newer AVR’s can and do hold their own against many of the equivalent priced 2ch pre’s.

Is 5k really a low budget? I reckon chinese companies like Shanling could deliver something that was good value for money, and a reasonable performer compared to other analog pre options. Just a matter of time.

[ArthurDent]

Being able to digitally process these formats, such that you could apply EQ and crossovers in the digital space, apply de-jitter mechanisms and pass the digital info onto high quality DACs, then also employ class A design analog output stages. Is it unreasonable to want all these features from a single device?

In a short while, I will be in the market for a 2 ch analog preamp (with ht bypass) and a good quality cdp (with internal dac).

So, how about we start with 2 che preamp options, with built a built in DAC with multiple digital inputs, and a sensible price tag.

And at this point I'm a tad confused as to what you're after or trying to achieve.

[OzMillsy]

And at this point I'm a tad confused as to what you're after or trying to achieve.

LOL, I'm exploring the options.

a] I've made a wishlist of features. To see if there is anyone here, who knows of a 2ch device that goes anywhere close to meeting it.

b] Because I'm yet to find anything with those features (at a reasonable price point), am likely to go the traditional route and have already started exploring options.

c] I'm checking if there are any halfway points - before I commit 1 way or another.

How does all that sound Ken?

Edited May 19, 2008 by OzMillsy

[Spearmint]

Which one was that? Was it a DIY kit like the Transcendant Grounded Grid?

Yes it was DIY LED/LDR

Front

Back

Is 5k really a low budget? I reckon chinese companies like Shanling could deliver something that was good value for money, and a reasonable performer compared to other analog pre options. Just a matter of time.

I guess it depends on your budget, and how soon you want to get your 2ch up and running.

[OzMillsy]

it is quite a feature list if you compare it to what a typical 2ch pre-amp comes on board. which is switching, vol control, remote, a ht byapss and a second set of pre-outs if your lucky. thats about all you can mange in the analog domain. which is what these devices are pure analog for the sound path and some digital control at most for niceties liek remote control switchign etc.

Acknowledged. But think about this is way. A 2k AVR can deliver most of those features. Problem is, an AVR isnt focussed on sonic purity - it tries to do alot more, with audio quality a secondary concern.

IF, Denon/Marantz/Onkyo were to take their AVR products, strip out all video circuitry, strip out all un-necessary channels, added some de-jitter considerations in their design, and invested all the savings from the other junk into optimising the DAC to analog output stages.

What would be the end result, and at what price could it be delivered?

2k, 5k, more?

It's not unachievable, or unreasonable. They just arent focussing on it, because Home Theatre brings in more money. Therefore it gets more attention.

[OzMillsy]

I guess it depends on your budget, and how soon you want to get your 2ch up and running.

I'll be going the traditional route, to cover me for the next coupla years. [2ch analog pre/better cdp]. Unless something crops up in the meantime.

Doesnt stop us exploring the options though.

[Guest JohnA]

What would be the end result, and at what price could it be delivered?

2k, 5k, more?

Lets look at it another way also

forget your marantz, pioneer, onkyo, yamaha and lets concentrate on high end 2 channel pre's

Is it fair to say to get a great sounding 2 channel pre with minimal features as all are for $4k and up

now lets add to that all the features you want and having to keep the same sonic purity....

imagine the price point

you know some of the most expensive pres actualy offer nothing, purely to keep the signal path as clean as possible, hell, even remote volume control are not liked by many enthusiasts because they can degrade he sound

[OzMillsy]

you know some of the most expensive pres actualy offer nothing, purely to keep the signal path as clean as possible, hell, even remote volume control are not liked by many enthusiasts because they can degrade he sound

I hear you John. And it's these kinds of enthusiasts who tend to go analog ALL the way from the source.

I'm not afraid to step outside of conventional thinking though.

If you have digital at the source, why not take advantage of the fact that it is digital?

It's already been reported that the new Denon HT preamp, rivals many 2ch analog pre's in the 4k range, for sonic output capabilities.

If they stripped out all the video junk and extra channels. What can they do for 2ch only, at what cost? And would there be a market for it?

[norpus]

I hear you John. And it's these kinds of enthusiasts who tend to go analog ALL the way from the source.

I'm not afraid to step outside of conventional thinking though.

If you have digital at the source, why not take advantage of the fact that it is digital?

It's already been reported that the new Denon HT preamp, rivals many 2ch analog pre's in the 4k range, for sonic output capabilities.

If they stripped out all the video junk and extra channels. What can they do for 2ch only, at what cost? And would there be a market for it?

Ok Ozmillsy, it is clear to me this thread was started for interest only - to start a convo and maybe some gems might come out. I don't have a prob with theoretical starter topics.

I think the answers to date have actually summed up what is available - now you need to go and do some proper research on the options and then try some, so as to add to the knowledge wealth.

Oh and btw, as a small gem offering, the Benchmark dac1 as a pre fits quite a few of your wishlist and yes I tried that option and it wasn't bad. Sonically there is some more to go if one spends more than 2K.

[OzMillsy]

I think the answers to date have actually summed up what is available - now you need to go and do some proper research on the options and then try some, so as to add to the knowledge wealth.

Oh and btw, as a small gem offering, the Benchmark dac1 as a pre fits quite a few of your wishlist and yes I tried that option and it wasn't bad. Sonically there is some more to go if one spends more than 2K.

Definetly a talking point. But make no mistake, if there was a product that filled 80% of the requirements, at a price point of 4k or less, I would be looking at it. If it's purpose is to achieve optimal 2ch sonic output for digital sources (with some added functionality) I would be all over it. It's not *just* a conversation thread.

I find it interesting that alot of the (digital) advances we see in audio systems, seem to come into the market via HT products. That's where the $ are I guess. [shrugs]

Do we have some options? Not in my (current) price range. I cant seem to find a local supplier of the TACT 2.2 MINI, this is the closest so far (on paper). Very nice features, the ability to run a 2.2 solution is nice too. No idea on price, I get the feeling we are in the 5 figure arena. If there was a TACT dealer in Sydney, who would be willing to do a demo in my room, I'd certainly report back the findings.

I've had a no obligations offer to have a demo of the DEQX at my place, on my system. And will take this up, when I have selected and installed an analog preamp to compare it to. But I have absolutely zero need to utilise it's speaker conversion (to active) features, and I hate the idea of needing to hook it up to a PC to do alot of the adjustments. So it's not ideal, but am willing to see how it fars.

I often see Benchmark DAC1's on Ebay, but was under the impression the volume control was for the headphone sockets.

What I'd really like to do, is see what *other* options there are. Either now, or as they come to market in the future.

Edited May 19, 2008 by OzMillsy

[Spearmint]

Definetly a talking point. I find it interesting that alot of the (digital) advances we see in audio systems, seem to come into the market via HT products. That's where the $ are I guess. [shrugs]

Do we have some options? Not in my (current) price range. I cant seem to find a local supplier of the TACT 2.2 MINI, this is the closest so far (on paper). Very nice features, the ability to run a 2.2 solution is nice too. If there was a TACT dealer in Sydney, who would be willing to do a demo in my room, I'd certainly report back the findings.

I've had a no obligations offer to have a demo of the DEQX at my place, on my system. And will take this up, when I have selected and installed an analog preamp to compare it to. But I have absolutely zero need to utilise it's speaker conversion (to active) features.

I often see Benchmark DAC1's on Ebay, but was under the impression the volume control was for the headphone sockets.

As far as I’m aware, TACT no longer has a distributor in Australia. So you’ll either need to buy blind and import one, or look for alternatives.

The volume control on the DAC1 also controls the pre outs as well when set to variable.

[OzMillsy]

The volume control on the DAC1 also controls the pre outs as well when set to variable.

OK, cheers.

Actually while you posted, I was checking the benchmark website. And guess what, they have a new "PRE" model.

Benchmark DAC1 PRE

4 digital inputs + usb connectivity (with full 24bit path via usb).

This option is getting there..... U$1.6k, isnt too bad either. Would be interesting to compare this one, to a good analog pre.

[Spearmint]

OK, cheers.

Actually while you posted, I was checking the benchmark website. And guess what, they have a new "PRE" model.

Benchmark DAC1 PRE

4 digital inputs + usb connectivity (with full 24bit path via usb).

This option is getting there..... U$1.6k, isnt too bad either. Would be interesting to compare this one, to a good analog pre.

There you go, now you’ve got a couple of products you can test and compare and let us know what you think of them!