scottylans Posted May 16, 2008 Posted May 16, 2008 Hi all, Ex-PC Gamer who switched to consoles, so my TV is mostly used for gaming (50%) DVD movies (20%) and TV (actually,.. divx via XBMC) at 30% I use a PS3, Wii, 360, Xbox 1 and PS2 on my current 36" Toshiba HD CRT all hooked up via component. I'm curious if there's any other CRT lovers here who've finally moved on up and accepted the quality loss for a bigger picture, if so what did you get, why and are you happy with it? (IIRC Owen is a bit of a quality nut but I'm not buying a used SXRD sorry! ) I'd prefer no input lag for a start, ideally fairly good black levels, crisp clean image so I can read small text (I have bad eyes so it's hard to read stuff on my CRT) I'm very curious about 100 and 120hz, since I'm using my Xbox 1 in NTSC 720p mode plus my Xbox 360 does 60hz 720 / 1080 ideally there'd be a display which does both 100 and 120 by now? Does anyone have any good recommendations, I'm a quality lover but I do have a budget, those Kuro things sound interesting from what I've read but the $$ seems ridiculous. Since burn in is less likely on an LCD are there any with decent blacks? I normally don't like the LCD's in stores that I see- they look very grainy but perhaps one of those 46" Sony ones might be usable? Looking forward to any responses, or links to similar thread please. (thank you all)
ascl Posted May 16, 2008 Posted May 16, 2008 (edited) I went from a 32 inch HDTV Sony CRT to a 50 inch panasonic 1080p plasma, and use this mostly for games, although watch movies on it too. I have found: -Burn In and Image Retention are basically a non-issue. Sure you can't leave your games paused over night or anything stupid like that. -Image quality is not as good as my CRT... but the massive increase in screen size definitely makes up for it (and I was going from one of the best image quality available) -Phosphor trails are very minimal. I only notice them when specifically looking for them, and even then its hard for me to notice. Nothing at all like the youtube videos. -Input/Display lag is not (to me) noticeable. I play Guitar Hero and Rock Band and have them calibrated to 0s delay. -Reflections and glare is actually less noticable on the plasma than the CRT My thoughts on LCD: -I don't like motion blur, although I use an LCD on my PC so obviously don't find it a huge deal -Uneven back lights can be annoying, and, obviously, vary from set to set -blacks are not as good -Burn in is very close to non-existant, and no image retention at all. -Less glare/reflections than plasma (although coming from CRT, even plasma will be an improvement I think) From the LCDs I looked at, I thought the Samsung series was the best, and I came close to getting one, but in the end, the picture looked better on the plasma. IMHO you should look at the new panasonic pz85 or pz800 which should be released in Australia soon, or, if you want an LCD, check out the samsung LCDs. The Pioneer KUROs are beautiful sets, and I would love to have the money to spend on one. If you can afford one, then they are pretty much the best TV you can get at the moment (for less than $10k anyway). Hope this helps Edited May 16, 2008 by ascl
scottylans Posted May 16, 2008 Author Posted May 16, 2008 I went from a 32 inch HDTV Sony CRT to a 50 inch panasonic 1080p plasma, and use this mostly for games, although watch movies on it too. I have found: -Burn In and Image Retention are basically a non-issue. Sure you can't leave your games paused over night or anything stupid like that. -Image quality is not as good as my CRT... but the massive increase in screen size definitely makes up for it (and I was going from one of the best image quality available) -Phosphor trails are very minimal. I only notice them when specifically looking for them, and even then its hard for me to notice. Nothing at all like the youtube videos. -Input/Display lag is not (to me) noticeable. I play Guitar Hero and Rock Band and have them calibrated to 0s delay. -Reflections and glare is actually less noticable on the plasma than the CRT My thoughts on LCD: -I don't like motion blur, although I use an LCD on my PC so obviously don't find it a huge deal -Uneven back lights can be annoying, and, obviously, vary from set to set -blacks are not as good -Burn in is very close to non-existant, and no image retention at all. -Less glare/reflections than plasma (although coming from CRT, even plasma will be an improvement I think) From the LCDs I looked at, I thought the Samsung series was the best, and I came close to getting one, but in the end, the picture looked better on the plasma. IMHO you should look at the new panasonic pz85 or pz800 which should be released in Australia soon, or, if you want an LCD, check out the samsung LCDs. The Pioneer KUROs are beautiful sets, and I would love to have the money to spend on one. If you can afford one, then they are pretty much the best TV you can get at the moment (for less than $10k anyway). Hope this helps What's the estimated price of these new Panasonic displays? I hear the 32" HD CRT's (I'm assuming your 32" was a HD nice one?) had excellent picture quality too. I must admit my 36" is glarier than I'd normally like, they polished up the glass quite a bit, not too bad but somewhat glarish, much prefer a matte finish. I heard a rumour that plasma is quicker than LCD - so surely the phosphor issue would be even less than LCD, perhaps not - someone on here said that within the past week. These 2 models you mentioned, under 3.5k$ to my door or what, any ideas? I gotta sell my old 36" too - but that's another story.
chickenstrangler Posted May 16, 2008 Posted May 16, 2008 (edited) You can get a KURO 508xda for well less than $3500.Provided you can ACTUALLY GET ONE! Dont know on gaming performance though as i am still waiting for mine to arrive. Edited May 16, 2008 by chickenstrangler
scottylans Posted May 16, 2008 Author Posted May 16, 2008 You can get a KURO 508xda for well less than $3500.Provided you can ACTUALLY GET ONE! Dont know on gaming performance though as i am still waiting for mine to arrive. How old is that model ? The AVS forums seem to be debating the Kuro's value and it seems to me that the current one is an older model (I'm guessing the one you mentioned) There's meant to be a new one coming I hear but it's $$$
ascl Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 (edited) I had a Sony Superfine pitch HDTV, and yes, the PQ was amazing. I have also heard that plasma generally has less display lag, however, it does come down to the brand/model you buy, so you do need to research it. The phosphor lag is something unique to plasma's, it doesn't occur on LCDs at all, however, LCDs have motion blur, which I believe is significantly worse. I can't tell you the price for the panasonic's, sorry (I live in HK), but would imagine they will be aorund that price range. The Pioneer 508xda I think is a 720p panel (768 really), which may be an issue depending on how far away you sit. For my seating distance I found the 720p panel to have noticeable SDE (Screen Door Effect, ie can see the gaps between the pixels). This was a deal breaker for me, however its different for each person, so you really want to measure you seating distance, and go into a store and check if you can see the SDE at that distance. You also have to weigh up 720p vs 1080p -- its generally a smaller issue than people think, and I believe SDE is a far greater factor when deciding 720 vs 1080. From my research it seems neither the panasonic or pioneer plasma's have significant display lag. EDIT: The KURO 508xda is equivilent to the 5080 in the US, and is last years model... but the new models are not out in the US yet, let alone Australia! Edited May 17, 2008 by ascl
scottylans Posted May 17, 2008 Author Posted May 17, 2008 Well CRT's have a phosphor effect too - to some extent. I sit about 2 metres eyeball to screen surface from my 36" CRT - I'll be about 2.3 from the 50" since I can put it closer to the wall. My eyes however are terrible and I don't plan on fixing them any time soon - it makes for great 'free AA' in games but makes text difficult to read and small map icons (GTA IV) difficult to see It seems the Panasonic and Kuro are 'fighting' with each other over on AVS forums and here - both sound quite nice but the Kuro is ridiculously expensive, I may be a bit of a videophile but the 50" new model sounds like it's going to be 30% more expensive than the Pananasonic new model - that's a bit steep as far as I'm concerned - so it looks like I will follow the talk of the 800a and see what other aussies think. Would like to try one first though Anyone know if it does 100 AND 120hz?
spalmills Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 I had a Sony Superfine pitch HDTV, and yes, the PQ was amazing. I have also heard that plasma generally has less display lag, however, it does come down to the brand/model you buy, so you do need to research it. The phosphor lag is something unique to plasma's, it doesn't occur on LCDs at all, however, LCDs have motion blur, which I believe is significantly worse.I can't tell you the price for the panasonic's, sorry (I live in HK), but would imagine they will be aorund that price range. The Pioneer 508xda I think is a 720p panel (768 really), which may be an issue depending on how far away you sit. For my seating distance I found the 720p panel to have noticeable SDE (Screen Door Effect, ie can see the gaps between the pixels). This was a deal breaker for me, however its different for each person, so you really want to measure you seating distance, and go into a store and check if you can see the SDE at that distance. You also have to weigh up 720p vs 1080p -- its generally a smaller issue than people think, and I believe SDE is a far greater factor when deciding 720 vs 1080. From my research it seems neither the panasonic or pioneer plasma's have significant display lag. EDIT: The KURO 508xda is equivilent to the 5080 in the US, and is last years model... but the new models are not out in the US yet, let alone Australia! Unless you are sitting on top of your screen the SDE is not an issue. If you are 1.5m away it is barely visable , from 2m or more away from it you cant see it at all unless you have bionic vision.
spalmills Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 You can get a KURO 508xda for well less than $3500.Provided you can ACTUALLY GET ONE! Dont know on gaming performance though as i am still waiting for mine to arrive. You can get one for under $2900-00 but you are right , if you can find one.
scottylans Posted May 17, 2008 Author Posted May 17, 2008 Unless you are sitting on top of your screen the SDE is not an issue. If you are 1.5m away it is barely visable , from 2m or more away from it you cant see it at all unless you have bionic vision. Well some people have fantastic eyesight. Also if you're playing a game with menus and stuff - with a solid single black / white / grey / blue (whatever) you get to analyse the picture far more than you do a movie. My new Asus 22" LCD for my PC (cheap, simple, nasty) looks fine at playing back movies and stuff, it's all moving - different colours constantly but in general windows / menus - if I look at text (example, red on grey here in firefox) it looks kinda crappy. The same could be said of a TV :/ A top of the shelf 22" CRT for your PC has a jaw dropping image - but a 50" plasma / lcd TV may look good in movies, HD and SD but menus - not so much. Us gamers, we're picky
spalmills Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 Well some people have fantastic eyesight.Also if you're playing a game with menus and stuff - with a solid single black / white / grey / blue (whatever) you get to analyse the picture far more than you do a movie. My new Asus 22" LCD for my PC (cheap, simple, nasty) looks fine at playing back movies and stuff, it's all moving - different colours constantly but in general windows / menus - if I look at text (example, red on grey here in firefox) it looks kinda crappy. The same could be said of a TV :/ A top of the shelf 22" CRT for your PC has a jaw dropping image - but a 50" plasma / lcd TV may look good in movies, HD and SD but menus - not so much. Us gamers, we're picky I was talking about the picture on my Pioneer 50" , and i wasnt just referring to SDE for movies. If you can see this from 2 meters you would have super human eyesight, whether playing a game or not.
pneu Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 I'm very curious about 100 and 120hz, since I'm using my Xbox 1 in NTSC 720p mode plus my Xbox 360 does 60hz 720 / 1080 ideally there'd be a display which does both 100 and 120 by now? I wouldn't pay too much attention to 100hz/120hz as there aren't any video sources which can actually output 100/120fps, it's just referring to whether the TV can artificially turn 50fps into 100fps (and 60 into 120) by guessing at which frames go in between every other, and it is usually a hit and miss process. The Sony Bravias get it right sometimes , but only when there is little amount of motion, then it briefly looks as if you are actually watching true 100fps. But on fast motion it just looks like blur artefacts have been added, and most people prefer to turn it off. Personally I have just bought a 42" Panasonic which are dirt cheap ($1100) but haven't got it yet. Picture on it looked great in stores and I will be using it for TV, videogames and DVD/blu-ray at a viewing distance of 2.2m. If you've got the budget though check out the Pioneers as they looked even better than the Panasonic.
scottylans Posted May 17, 2008 Author Posted May 17, 2008 I wouldn't pay too much attention to 100hz/120hz as there aren't any video sources which can actually output 100/120fps, it's just referring to whether the TV can artificially turn 50fps into 100fps (and 60 into 120) by guessing at which frames go in between every other, and it is usually a hit and miss process. <SNIP> I know there's nothing which actually outputs at 100hz or 120hz (besides a PC) but I am actually a huge fan of 100/ 120hz televisions. My CRT does 100hz with SD content and it looks AWESOME - it's just so stable, like a PC monitor - I don't care if it's the same image twice, it's solid and nice - looks excellent in menus - looks like a 'display' and not a TV of the 70 / 80 / 90's (I know that sounds odd but well that's the only word I can think of for it)
pneu Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 I know there's nothing which actually outputs at 100hz or 120hz (besides a PC) but I am actually a huge fan of 100/ 120hz televisions.My CRT does 100hz with SD content and it looks AWESOME - it's just so stable, like a PC monitor - I don't care if it's the same image twice, it's solid and nice - looks excellent in menus - looks like a 'display' and not a TV of the 70 / 80 / 90's (I know that sounds odd but well that's the only word I can think of for it) Digital displays do not have the same issue as CRT's which flicker under low refresh rates. As I understand it CRT draws the screen from top to bottom which is the main cause of the flicker. Plasma/lcd change the entire image at once so there is no flicker regardless of the refresh rate.
ascl Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 Unless you are sitting on top of your screen the SDE is not an issue. If you are 1.5m away it is barely visable , from 2m or more away from it you cant see it at all unless you have bionic vision. This is *completely* dependent on your vision. For me, its an issue. I sit 2m away from a 50inch, and needed 1080p over a 720p set due to SDE. Saying its not an issue is only a statement you can make for yourself, hence I recommend people go and check it out for themselves.
scottylans Posted May 17, 2008 Author Posted May 17, 2008 This is *completely* dependent on your vision. For me, its an issue. I sit 2m away from a 50inch, and needed 1080p over a 720p set due to SDE. Saying its not an issue is only a statement you can make for yourself, hence I recommend people go and check it out for themselves. Well like I said, my vision, she not so good so it's likely not going to affect me. I'd still prefer 1080p though, I don't see how anyone would want anything less now (unless it's a 42" or smaller) - the 1080p 'era' is here - 720 is good but it's simply old now.
spalmills Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 This is *completely* dependent on your vision. For me, its an issue. I sit 2m away from a 50inch, and needed 1080p over a 720p set due to SDE. Saying its not an issue is only a statement you can make for yourself, hence I recommend people go and check it out for themselves. Maybe it depends on which TV you are looking at, as my vision is fine and i cant see any dse from 2m or more on mine. Of course people should check for themselves, that one speaks for itself.
spalmills Posted May 17, 2008 Posted May 17, 2008 Well like I said, my vision, she not so good so it's likely not going to affect me.I'd still prefer 1080p though, I don't see how anyone would want anything less now (unless it's a 42" or smaller) - the 1080p 'era' is here - 720 is good but it's simply old now. Just because something is old i dont think its a reason to get rid of it. You still want to hold onto your CRT dont you?? Dont get too sucked into all the 1080P stuff. My Pioneer isnt 1080P and the picture is sensational.
scottylans Posted May 17, 2008 Author Posted May 17, 2008 Just because something is old i dont think its a reason to get rid of it. You still want to hold onto your CRT dont you?? Dont get too sucked into all the 1080P stuff. My Pioneer isnt 1080P and the picture is sensational. I agree, 720p owners shouldn't be upgrading but I don't think that buyers of new displays should be getting less than 1080p. (above 42" that is)
spalmills Posted May 18, 2008 Posted May 18, 2008 I agree, 720p owners shouldn't be upgrading but I don't think that buyers of new displays should be getting less than 1080p.(above 42" that is) Bought mine about 2 months ago so thats pretty new. It all comes down to the distance you sit from your screen which has been extensively spoken about here for a while now obviously. If you sit less than 2-2.5M get a 1080P if you sit 3M or more you would struggle to tell the difference.
diesel Posted May 18, 2008 Posted May 18, 2008 Resolution isn't everything. There are many other specs and features that should be considered before rushing out and buying a new TV.
automan Posted May 18, 2008 Posted May 18, 2008 They have a 52 inch Samsung M model lcd off display they are selling at Good Guys hoppers crossing for $3300. 3k after cash back from samsung, sounds alright.
Volunteer Kazz Posted May 18, 2008 Volunteer Posted May 18, 2008 Resolution isn't everything. There are many other specs and features that should be considered before rushing out and buying a new TV. Absolutely correct, having recently viewed the 768 Pana and the 1080p Pana plasmas there is no way I would have bought the 1080p panel, it may have a higher resolution but comapred to the lower res model the picture was crap.
scottylans Posted May 18, 2008 Author Posted May 18, 2008 Bought mine about 2 months ago so thats pretty new. It all comes down to the distance you sit from your screen which has been extensively spoken about here for a while now obviously. If you sit less than 2-2.5M get a 1080P if you sit 3M or more you would struggle to tell the difference. Is it more than 42" and you still got 720p? If so, I sure as heck hope the savings from getting the lesser model was significant.
spalmills Posted May 18, 2008 Posted May 18, 2008 (edited) Is it more than 42" and you still got 720p?If so, I sure as heck hope the savings from getting the lesser model was significant. oh yeah , its a 50" Pioneer 508xda Do you want the links to the reviews for it, it might make you feel better !! It has 1365x768 res , so half the res of Full HD , but pretty much out performs all of those. As others have stated here , numbers aint everything Edited May 18, 2008 by spalmills
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