Converting A Ntsc Lcd Tv To Pal.

[Gabriel....]

Hello all

This is my first post so apologies for any faux pax.

I recently have been looking for a 32" LCD TV for use as both TV, game console and monitor.

My enquiries resulted in three 32" LCD TV's a SONY (KDL-32XBR6) , SHARP (LC-32GP3U) and SAMSUNG (LN32A650).

Of these I decided on either the SONY or the SHARP, eventually settling on the SONY due to its superior specs.

Unfortunately neither SHARP nor SONY are available in Australia at the moment (probably not the SAMSUNG either but I don't know for sure).

To make matters worse the people at Sony Australia inform me that they cannot give any release date other then soon, as apparently they do not know themselves and are not told until a few days before delivery (sounds a little unlikely, but maybe Sony keeps the Australian office in the dark??).

Knowing that "soon" could mean anywhere from weeks to months, I am seriously considering imprtong the US model.

I have a comptuer science background, but know little about audio/visual equipment ( a fact that will become readily apparent throughout this post , and was hoping that somebody in this forum may be able to help me with a few questions that I have listed below :

1. I believe that I will need some form of NTSC to PAL converter ? I do not know much about NTSC or PAL (other then they have something to do with how the incoming video signal is encoded) and so am confused if the converter is something I need to attach to the attenae, the HDMI, or both ?

2. Will such a converter add much lag time into the signal ? I am concerned about this as one of the reasons for purchasing this particular TV is that it comes with a lag reducing facility in order to reduce lag between gaming consoles and the TV.

3. Will I need an Australian power cord, or some sort of fancy transformer (the model of TV I would be importing is intended for distribution in the USA) ?

4. Are there any other issues I should be concerned with ?

It would be greatly appreciated if someone could help me with this query.

Thankyou

Gabriel

[aafuss]

The digital tuner in a US TV is ATSC-whereas Australia uses DVB-T.

[ascl]

Importing a TV from the US will likely suck pretty badly. You will need a transformer for 240 -> 110 volts (I think, its possible the TV will have a switchable power supply). The tuner, as mentioned by aafuss will not work, so you will need a STB, and you may have problems with the TV not accepting a PAL signal from devices you plug into it, ie STB, DVD player, xbox/ps3.

Even if you are connecting high definition devices, you may run into problems as frame rates can differ (50Hz vs 60Hz).

So you need to look into this carefully. With the added cost of the transformer, the STB and a video conversion box (which may not be cheap), you might be better off buying locally. Not to mention warranty issues.

Depending on what TV you are talking about, its possible it will happily accept any signal. My Panasonic PY700 plasma from Hong Kong will accept any PAL or NTSC signal, at any resolution (well up to 1080p@60Hz). So it may not be an issue.... however, even if it does accept a 50 Hz signal, it may make a mess of the 50 -> 60 Hz conversion, and add judder to the picture.

I think the short answer is, just don't do it. Especially since its a relatively small/cheap TV it really doesn't seem like its worth all the hassles.

EDIT: A video processor will almost definitely introduce a certain amount of lag, whether its enough to be an issue or not probably depends on how much you spend! Also, just because it has a 'Game Mode' doesn't mean its going to be lag-free for gaming! My TV (for eg) has no noticable gaming lag, yet has no gaming mode. You really need to find some reviews that mention this being specifically tested for (I play Guitar Hero and Rock Band a lot..... display lag can really suck). Hope this helps!

Edited May 13, 2008 by ascl

[alanh]

Gabriel,

I see no need to go to the USA to buy a Sony Bravia TV.

The highest resolution which is available for domestic use is 1920 x 1080 progressive at 24 and 25 frame/s This includes Blue Ray and all present and future HD broadcasts.

These above characteristics are available on the current Bravia X and XBR series.

NTSC and PAL are only used in analog TV.

Just use HDMI or DVI with an converter plug to feed the above TV. It will take computer inputs as well.

In addition the Australian version will receive all broadcast signals and can be fed with Foxtel if required.

You will end up with a warranty, service available and no hassels with freight, customs etc. The picture quality will be no better than the import.

AlanH

[ascl]

[quote name='alanh' date='May 13 2008,

NTSC and PAL are only used in analog TV.

While this is true, there is still 60 Hz vs 50 Hz for HD, and Europe (and I think Aust) uses 50 Hz, while NTSC countries (ie US + Japan) use 60 Hz (actually the signal tends to be 25 or 30, and the decoder will double this). Yes this was the chance to use a common standard.... but no. sigh.

Anway, its all annoying and complex. Listen to alanh and get the local bravia

[diesel]

I think the short answer is, just don't do it. Especially since its a relatively small/cheap TV it really doesn't seem like its worth all the hassles.

2nd that!

All too difficult in my book.

[kulfi]

you may have problems with the TV not accepting a PAL signal from devices you plug into it, ie STB, DVD player, xbox/ps3.

I agree with you on all other points that you've made except this one - I think most TVs now have multi-system compatibility i.e. PAL & NTSC. Besides, it is possible to set DVD players to send output to NTSC TVs at the touch of a button.

Even then, should the OP import from the US ? No, I don't think so and support all other posts on this forum asking him not to.

[Gabriel....]

Thanks to all for replying.

Its not quite what I wanted to hear, but ....

The reason I wanted to get the TV from the states is that you CANNOT purchase a 32" 1080p LCD Sony Bravia TV in Australia currently. This model will be supported wit the new XR6 range (specifically KDL32XBR6).

I specifically want this size TV as when I use the TV as a display for my game console or as a monitor for my computer, I sit quite close to the display (1m or so) and so visual artifacts are more noticeable.

Although 1080p resolution may be less important (except with large TV's) when watching DVD's, TV broadcasts etc, as the content its self is produced at a lower resolution then 1080p. (I am not sure the res of blue ray and hd-dvd, but remember reading somewhere about them being produced at 720p but this could be wrong). This however is not the case with computer/console games (as the graphic content is calculated rather then being pregenerated, that is except for textures). It is for this reason, in addition to using the TV as a display for when I am programming, that I particularly want a 32" 1080p LCD TV. The addition of the the anti-lag feature, in addittion to the bravia DSP and superior (to SHARP and SAMSUNG 32") specs, that I want this particular model and size of TV.

If I knew the TV would be released in Australia by the end of june, then I would hold off until it was ready, but I do not want to wait an indefinite amount of time. As it stands it looks like I do not have much choice. I will look back into the SHARP and SAMSUNG models (LC-32GP3U and LN32A650), although the SHARP seems to be unavailable according to local distributers, I will need to contact SHARP diretly to confirm this.

If I knew the end result was going to be identical to the Australian model (without judder, lag or other problems), by sourcing the US model and then following the advice given by everyone here, then I would do it. Unfortuately though it seems this will not be the case.

So once agian thanks to all (kulfi, diesel,ascl,alanh,aafus, et al ...) for your sobering advice.

Regards

Gabriel

[ascl]

I agree with you on all other points that you've made except this one - I think most TVs now have multi-system compatibility i.e. PAL & NTSC. Besides, it is possible to set DVD players to send output to NTSC TVs at the touch of a button.

Even then, should the OP import from the US ? No, I don't think so and support all other posts on this forum asking him not to.

I was just covering all bases. I agree completely that many TVs these days are multi-system... but if I stated that they all are someone, somewhere would find one that isnt

[GJ23]

Thanks to all for replying.

Its not quite what I wanted to hear, but ....

The reason I wanted to get the TV from the states is that you CANNOT purchase a 32" 1080p LCD Sony Bravia TV in Australia currently. This model will be supported wit the new XR6 range (specifically KDL32XBR6).

I specifically want this size TV as when I use the TV as a display for my game console or as a monitor for my computer, I sit quite close to the display (1m or so) and so visual artifacts are more noticeable.

Although 1080p resolution may be less important (except with large TV's) when watching DVD's, TV broadcasts etc, as the content its self is produced at a lower resolution then 1080p. (I am not sure the res of blue ray and hd-dvd, but remember reading somewhere about them being produced at 720p but this could be wrong). This however is not the case with computer/console games (as the graphic content is calculated rather then being pregenerated, that is except for textures). It is for this reason, in addition to using the TV as a display for when I am programming, that I particularly want a 32" 1080p LCD TV. The addition of the the anti-lag feature, in addittion to the bravia DSP and superior (to SHARP and SAMSUNG 32") specs, that I want this particular model and size of TV.

If I knew the TV would be released in Australia by the end of june, then I would hold off until it was ready, but I do not want to wait an indefinite amount of time. As it stands it looks like I do not have much choice. I will look back into the SHARP and SAMSUNG models (LC-32GP3U and LN32A650), although the SHARP seems to be unavailable according to local distributers, I will need to contact SHARP diretly to confirm this.

If I knew the end result was going to be identical to the Australian model (without judder, lag or other problems), by sourcing the US model and then following the advice given by everyone here, then I would do it. Unfortuately though it seems this will not be the case.

So once agian thanks to all (kulfi, diesel,ascl,alanh,aafus, et al ...) for your sobering advice.

Regards

Gabriel

Hi Gabriel,

I got onto this thread a bit late & i too am new to the forums, so my info may or may not help.

Anyhoo...I own a Sony KDL-46X2000_46" and you'd think the specs would be similar if not the same:

Terminal 1 & 2 (component)

supported formats: 1080i, 720p, 576p, 576i, 480p, 480i

HDMI in 1 & 2:

1080p, 1080i, 720p, 576p, 576i, 480p, 480i

- Now i think...and the others will fill me in here...but, that means it handles 50hz & 60hz. 480p

So, if you have an external STB for AUS DTV, you should have no worries with the TV handling the signal. Its just the internal digital tuner that may cause dramas.

PLus_This sonys analog colour/video system_handles NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, SECAM & PAL...Digital system MP@HL & MP@ML

But, perhaps American screens are not ok wih the different systems?

That and the power supply would be a major prob .

Perhaps you should post the question on an american forum and get the specs from that end?

Hope this helps.

cheers

GJ

[digitalj]

This is what's listed on Sony's USA site:

Acceptable Video Signals : 480/60i, 480/60p, 720p, 1080/60i, 1080/24p (HDMI™ only), 1080/60p (HDMI™ / Component)

Appears to only accept 60Hz and 24Hz with 1080p, no 50Hz.

Playing back blu-ray won't be a problem as you can set the Blu-ray player to output 1080p24.

You should be able to get any DVD Player to output 480i/p60

You won't be able to watch TV unless you use a STB that can output NTSC, e.g. the Latest Healing HD STB, Digicrystal HDT-9500

Playing Games will be an issue.

Trying to watch Foxtel/Austar will be an issue.

You may be able to resolve the last 2 issues if you have a DVD Recorder that's able to output 480i/p60, as you would connect the games console and Foxtel/Austar to both S-video inputs of the DVD Recorder and have it convert the 576i/50 signals to 480i/p60.

In the end you will end up having to pay at least another $400 on top of purchasing the LCD TV, so you may as well wait.

[Gabriel....]

Hello again

Thanks for responding gj23. Your answer has reinspired my lost cause

As mentioned previous my knowledge in this area is next to non existent, so excuse the naievity of the below questions :

1. If the TV supports the PAL standard, why would the internal digital tuner be a problem (is it preset to NTSC or such) ?

2. When you said "perhaps the amercian screens are not ok with the different systems", what did you mean by this ?

It would be great if all I need is a new power supply! I have no problems with risking the problems associated with importing the TV, warranty etc, just so long as

the end result is a TV that works as you would expect the australian model to do.

I will do as you say and try and get the specs for the american model.

If its not to much to ask, what specifically should I be looking for to establish compatibility ? Is it just asking about PAL support, or is there more to it then that ?

Thanks once again

Regards

Gabriel

[digitalj]

Hello again

Thanks for responding gj23. Your answer has reinspired my lost cause

As mentioned previous my knowledge in this area is next to non existent, so excuse the naievity of the below questions :

1. If the TV supports the PAL standard, why would the internal digital tuner be a problem (is it preset to NTSC or such) ?

2. When you said "perhaps the amercian screens are not ok with the different systems", what did you mean by this ?

It would be great if all I need is a new power supply! I have no problems with risking the problems associated with importing the TV, warranty etc, just so long as

the end result is a TV that works as you would expect the australian model to do.

I will do as you say and try and get the specs for the american model.

If its not to much to ask, what specifically should I be looking for to establish compatibility ? Is it just asking about PAL support, or is there more to it then that ?

Thanks once again

Regards

Gabriel

Hi,

Read my post above yours for details of what you will and won't be able to do with the TV.

[Owen]

It is very common for US model TV’s NOT to be multi standard, so be careful.

Models sold else ware in the world usually are.

[Gabriel....]

Hi,

Read my post above yours for details of what you will and won't be able to do with the TV.

Thanks. Sorry I didn't see your post, must have appeared while I was typing.

Not happy about the, but at least I know.

One last question, regarding the 24, 60, and 50 hz specs that have been mentioned. Do these numbers correspond to the frames per second of the content, or the screen refresh rate, or something else ???? Does the PAL or NTSC standard imply a given hz by definition or are the two things mutually independent ??

PS This is probably a shot in the dark but does anybody have any inside information about the Australian release date of the KDL32XBR6 ??

Thanks for your time.

Regards

Gabriel

[ascl]

NTSC is 60 Hz, PAL is 50 Hz. 24 frames per second is what film is shot at. The frame rate of the content is dependent on what format it is shot on (ie film or digital etc). The screen's refresh rate is kind of related to this. Some PAL TVs (or HDTVs sold in Australia) run at 100 Hz, since its easy to take 50 Hz content and play it back at 100 Hz (by displaying every frame twice). Some TVs will accept 24p (ie 24 frames per second) content and either convert it to 60 Hz (so called 2:3 pulldown, since not every frame is repeated twice, some are repeated 3 times), some TVs will accept 24p and convert it to 50 Hz, and yet other TVs will accept 24p and display it at 48 or 72 Hz.

If you are really interested in the way conversions are done, you can look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

But let me try and summarise. TVs are generally geared towards 50Hz or 60Hz content. Some TVs double this display rate to ensure a smoother picture (100 or 120Hz). A few (not many) TVs display 24 Hz content at some multiple of 24 (48 or 72). Its common for TVs to accept a variety of frame rates, and convert it to its native display rate (ie generally 50Hz in Australia). This can introduce artifacts.

Phew. Hopefully that makes sense

[Gabriel....]

Thanks for that.

I am following now.

So much for international consistency heh, I feel right at home coming from a datacommunications background.

Regards

Gabriel

[msheldrick]

1. If the TV supports the PAL standard, why would the internal digital tuner be a problem (is it preset to NTSC or such) ?

It's because if it has an integrated digital tuner the american standard is ATSC not DVB-T so it's not possible without additional equipment

[msheldrick]

1. If the TV supports the PAL standard, why would the internal digital tuner be a problem (is it preset to NTSC or such) ?

It's because if it has an integrated digital tuner the american standard is ATSC not DVB-T so it's not possible without additional equipment

[Gabriel....]

It's because if it has an integrated digital tuner the american standard is ATSC not DVB-T so it's not possible without additional equipment

OK I think I am becoming a little less A/V illiterate.

So the NTSC and PAL are analogue standards, the ATSC and DVB-T are the digital standards.

I really should have realised that ... too much chlorine in the gene pool and all that

I have just contacted Sony US and thought people may be interested in their response :

"We are Sony of America Ltd. and only have information for units manufactured for sale and use in America, which are designed to be used on the NTSC system at 120v/60hz. We do not manufacture PAL, SECAM, or multi-system units. We must always suggest that you purchase units in the country in which you will be using them. There is always the possibility that a converter or adapter would not be compatible, which could cause damage to your Sony unit, thus voiding any existing warranty."

Now I do not know whether this is the standard answer or not, (ie tell you what it is designed to be marketed as rather what it will really support) ? Eitherway it doesn't really matter judging by the near unanimous responses by everyone tonight.

I guess I am back to waiting or looking into the SHARP model.

Once again many thanks for the interest, opinion and information.

Regards

Gabriel

[ascl]

If gaming lag is your primary issue, you may want to look at Plasma. For whatever reason they seem to have less processing lag (based on my experience and what I have read on the avs forum). Given you are after a smaller screen size that might not be an option, but if you can deal (!) with a 42 inch screen you can get a 1080p panasonic plasma (I game on a 50 inch panny, and love it, zero motion blur, no noticeable input lag).

I don't want to turn this into an LCD vs Plasma thing, but if you haven't considered the option, you may want to look into it and weigh the pro's and con's (burn in and image retention really are not issues unless you abuse your telly very badly).