Htpc Vs. Set-top Box

[Craig1]

Hi guys,

A post of a bit more general nature. I've just been having e-mail discussions with one of the guys at DigitalNow (Nunzio - very, very helpful chap!). Anyway, towards the end of the discussion, he has asked me why I don't just get a set-top box instead of looking at setting up a HTPC. A very good question indeed - here's my situation:

I just had a Standard Def twin-tuner set-top box die on me (out of warranty - about 18 months old). Only cost about $250, so not a big drama. However, my next step would be a High Def twin-tuner box - but, my biggest problem there is that they are far more expensive (let's say around the $1000 mark for a decent one) and I'm still yet to read any overly convincing reviews about any of the major brands. The upshot is, though, I would be far less happy if a $1000 set-top box died in 18 months time!!!

So, my next best option is a HTPC with HD tuners. In reality, my wife and I really only need to be able do the following:

- watch TV (duh!)

- schedule recordings (quite often two at a time)

- watch recordings

- time-shift live TV

That's about it. Oh, and it needs to run through my standard tele (not high-def at the moment), just like the old set-top box.

Am I crazy? Is this not what I should be doing? What's everyone's opinion on this?

Cheers,

Craig

[Mr.Bitey]

Really unless you want to do more you dont need to hassle of a HTPC - just get a Topfield TF7000HDPVRT

Cheers,

Bitey

[mwd]

If you go the PVR way you will wonder how you ever did without one for so long.

They are generally very reliable and dead simple to use.

[Shonky*]

Whilst a dual tuner HD PVR/HTPC can be cheaply built for around $500 (MythTV not Vista MCE), the hassle of setting them up can be a total nuisance and require lots of fiddling and hand holding.

The results can be rewarding though. I've had my MythTV running for about 6 years now and I almost can't live without it. I stll have recordings from 2003

TF7000 is around the $600-800 mark right?

[Mr.Bitey]

TF7000 is around the $600-800 mark right?

TF7000HDPVRT is around that money yeah

Cheers,

Bitey

[Ali AR]

Shonky if you dont mind sharing, what are the specs of your system? as i am very interested in building a system around that cost. I am tech savy so i should be able to fiddle with it initially as long as it is stable after that.

Whilst a dual tuner HD PVR/HTPC can be cheaply built for around $500 (MythTV not Vista MCE), the hassle of setting them up can be a total nuisance and require lots of fiddling and hand holding.

The results can be rewarding though. I've had my MythTV running for about 6 years now and I almost can't live without it. I stll have recordings from 2003

TF7000 is around the $600-800 mark right?

sorry for the hijack Craig1

[Craig1]

No probs, Ali - it's always worth finding out how others have setup their equipment.

From my point of view, I don't mind fiddling around to get something working .... as long as once it's working, I don't have to keep fiddling with it!

Yes, the topfield is around $600-800, but I've read lots of conflicting reviews about it - some love it, some hate it.

The other advantage I think I might have with a HTPC is that there are so many different viewers to choose from .... with a set-top box, you're stuck with whatever the firmware provides. This was what I experienced going from a single-tuner Digicrystal STB to a twin-tuner - the single-tuner had such a good user interface, with great functionality (like splitting recorded files), but then none of the good stuff was there in the twin-tuner.

Plus, I just figure there's heaps of other options with a HTPC - like being able to easily copy files of to another machine over the network or to an external USB drive, burn straight to DVD, etc. With the death of my SD STB, I'm left with the task of trying to get all the recorded files (that we hadn't watched yet) off the hard-drive and into a format that is playable elsewhere.

As I said previously, though, if I'm kidding myself, then please let me know !!!!!!

Cheers,

Craig

[pgdownload]

If you go the PVR way you will wonder how you ever did without one for so long.

The OP has already experienced a PVR mwd.

I have to agree with mwd and bitey though. You mention 'wife' and by the sounds of it you just want some well integrated and hassle free HD viewing/recording. A HTPC can be cheap(er), powerful and fun but by most accounts you will need to be spending a fair amount of time tinkering and its rare that a HTPC can integrate into your living room as nicely as a dedicated PVR and remote.

As you don't have a HD set do you want the HD PVR for the extra channel content or just 'future proofing'? Perhaps look to get the SD PVR repaired or a new one for $300 or so on EBay? What model was it?

Otherwise unless you love the idea of a HTPC I'd take the plunge a try grab a $600 7000.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

PS You mention adding features / customisation. A twin tuner PVR like the SD Toppy 5000 can have dozens of little applications added to provide almost nulimited functional and aesthetic customisation

[Craig1]

Peter - well, as I said, given that the SD STB has died, I'd rather replace it with a HD unit so that when (or if) I get a HD tv, then it's all set to go. Plus, my wife is fairly convinced (and she's probably right) that there'll likely be some HD-only Olympics coverage from 7, so she's keen to make sure she doesn't miss anything.

Thanks for the extra advice, though.

Maybe (if I actually end up doing it) I'll do a "newbie HTPC setup" thread and keep everyone updated!

[Shonky*]

Shonky if you dont mind sharing, what are the specs of your system? as i am very interested in building a system around that cost. I am tech savy so i should be able to fiddle with it initially as long as it is stable after that.

It's fairly stable after initial set up yes. Occasionally you may have issues if the TV guide scraper stops working. You can always use the transmitted guide data though.

My system is a bit overboard on a basic system though.

AMD 4400 X2 CPU

Abit AN M2-HD motherboard using built in nVidia graphics via VGA to my plasma

750G + 320G + 320G + 120G for about 1.3TB of storage space

1GB RAM

2 Hauppauge digital tuners

1 Lifeview USB dual tuner

MythTV

Records 4 programs at once, whilst playing back another. Commercial flags. Plays back HDTV. The new MythTV can record 2 streams from the same channel e.g. Ten HD and Ten at the same time using a single tuner, so it's almost 8 tuners (not there are ever 8 things at once). It does allow overlapping recordings from the same tuner though to deal with the crappy scheduling we have.

To do it for $500 (using MSY or UMART prices):

AMD X2 4600 $77

ASUS M2N-MX motherboard $59

1GB 800MHz single stick RAM $25

320GB WD SATA $81

Leadtek DTV2000H PCI DVB tuner $69

Antec NSK2480B case + PSU $123

Microsoft MCE remote ~$50 (not at MSY/UMART have to look a bit harder for that)

MythTV - free

Total $484.

A dual tuner card can be had for another $30-40 most probably replacing the single tuner Leadtek...

Also that's a pretty basic motherboard.

NOTE: You need to check linux compatibility for MythTV or even Windows/MCE/Vista compatibility. I have not checked any of those parts. The main one is the capture card.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Shonky*

[pgdownload]

That's fine, as you say there's not really an ideal solution for you so its going to be a matter of picking the next best option.

I'd agree with your wife that the 7 HD channel will be swimming (no pun intended) in additional Olympic content.

The Toppy 7000 does have issues, but it does seem that for many people its pretty reliable and all agree its very ergonimic to use. It will continue to have firmware updates so hopefully can only get better. FWIW I couldn't have recommended it last year but this year the unit has passed a threshold that makes it a viable option I reckon.

You sound reasonably gun ho on the HTPC (a good thing) and to answer your original question setting one up should be well within your capability - there's an awful lot of online help and guides around.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[mwd]

Sorry for the confusion my bad. Should have guessed that a "Twin Tuner Set Top Box" in the the first post is actually a PVR.

[Puss in Books]

I just had a Standard Def twin-tuner set-top box die on me (out of warranty - about 18 months old). Only cost about $250, so not a big drama. However, my next step would be a High Def twin-tuner box - but, my biggest problem there is that they are far more expensive (let's say around the $1000 mark for a decent one) and I'm still yet to read any overly convincing reviews about any of the major brands. The upshot is, though, I would be far less happy if a $1000 set-top box died in 18 months time!!!

So, my next best option is a HTPC with HD tuners. In reality, my wife and I really only need to be able do the following:

I don't think you will get much change out of $1000 for a HD HTPC either - especially if you want to use vista or make it lounge-room and wife friendly. CPU, GPU, mobo, memory, case, cooling, psu, hdd, dvd, remote, tuners.... it all adds up.

[Shonky*]

To respond to the Ali's PM (better the info here):

MythTV is basically Linux oriented. It does work on some variants of FreeBSD and MacOS, but Linux is the one you want.

I'm actually running a distro called Mythdora. Mythdora 5 (just out) is special distro for MythTV based around Fedora 8. So it's basically Fedora 8 + MythTV packages + customisation for MythTV setup. It doesn't require any compiling or anything. It can however require some tweaking depending on the hardware you're using. That's where you have to be comfortable with the Linux shell.

[Craig1]

I don't think you will get much change out of $1000 for a HD HTPC either - especially if you want to use vista or make it lounge-room and wife friendly. CPU, GPU, mobo, memory, case, cooling, psu, hdd, dvd, remote, tuners.... it all adds up.

Yeah, you're probably right. I do have a few bits and pieces lying around, though, that I can use, so I'm not starting at zero. Having said that, these sorts of things rarely go as expected, so I'm sure I'll get started then $1500 later .........

Cheers,

Craig

[Shonky*]

Apart from Vista, what I suggested is $500 easy for single tuner HD HTPC. Yes it assumes you have a DVD/CD ROM lying around you can use temporarily to do the install. Apart from that it's complete. If you want to buy one it's only $50 extra - and a TF7000 can't play DVDs anyway so that's not an entirely fair comparison.

It can be made wife friendly too but again you will need some linux skills for some things.

[Mr.Bitey]

Dont forget your cheap-o PC wont be nice and quiet

Cheers,

Bitey

[Shonky*]

Actually it will be fairly quiet. AMD CPU fans run pretty quiet and throttle back to almost stopped when necessary. The PSU in the case is fairly quiet. If anything it wil the hard drive seeking but you'll get that with any PVR.

I have more than this and with the TV muted. I can't hear it from where I sit.

Nothing like a Xbox or PS3 - that's for sure.

[techo]

After several years with commercial PVRs and HDD DVDRs. I have almost completely abandoned them in favor of purpose built HTPCs and xbox clients. Whilst many will disagree, by using current hardware, it is possible to have an easy to use and easy to setup open architectured PC based PVR (HTPC).

This is my take on what works best. Whilst I love my myth box is was not cheap, due to Linux's hardware limitations, but did end up a powerful and reliable machine and without doubt makes a superior server/client network setup.

So I will confine my comments to an HTPC based on M$ VMC software.

• I found the easiest, and ultimately cheapest, combined front end/back end machines to be Vista MC based using motherboards with AMDs 690G or 780G north bridge.
  

Even though Visa (Home Premium) costs money it is often best bought as a package with MS MCE controller pack also these boards require 2gig of memory because of the on-board HDMI supported video

• The tuners for the VMC machine should be BDA Driver based and PCI-E eg. DNTV Live Dual Hybrid
  

An RF splitter is usually needed to feed the tuners of these cards (adding to costs)

• An appropriate case and power supply should be carefully considered
  

It is not necessary to pay >$300 for a good case the one case I did get in that category was rubbish but all the <$180 cases were better (all bought with PSs)

• Forget high power state of the art processors
  

I have good results with lowly old Semptrons with this set up although I am not running BD drives and don't push the resolution beyond 1080i.

Last comment - Remember a machine like this will cost more that most HDPVRs however it is so much better IMO.

[Yapab]

A HTPC can be very rewarding but can also be a hassle and never integrate into your living room quite as well as a dedicated STB....

If you like playing and tinkering with your setup, then a HTPC should be ok, but if you just want to enjoy your HT systems i would suggest a STB.

My HTPC cost me around 350 all up and plays all HD content, i have it as transparent as possible. Picked up a Harmony remote so now the HTPC is almost not there.... but it does have some issues that popup sometimes.

This week had to puchase a 120mm fan for the passive cooled 8400GS as it was getting to 105degrees while watching HD tv for extended periods, I got the slowest 120mm fan which is almost silent (cant be heard above the PSU).

With a STB you go and buy it, set it up and use it.

With a HTPC you do the same, but then you have to consider case size/design, will it suit a living room? Will it be too loud? What about cooling? Do you have all the right codecs, is your system stable? can everything be done using the remote, or will you have to use a wireless keyboard/mouse? What sound card does it have, will it support optical out? etc...

My HTPC is very budget, but plays all HD content and it was only around 350 to setup:

Intel E2140

ASUS MB with HD Audio

1gb DDR2

8400GS passive

The above setup should be enough, I have yet to encounter a HD stream which made the cpu go past 60% when using the 8400GS for decoding, normally its around 35% so plenty of room. Hardware is pretty cheap these days, a nice case will be the most expensive part.

I would go with an ATI HD2400 card as they are better than nvidia, but a 8400GS does very well and their very cheap. 1 or 2gb is more than enough.

The advantage of having such a pc is that it can do a lot more than a STB, mine is a FTP server, file server, torrent mule and radio/hdtv box.

Yapa

Edited May 10, 2008 by Yapab

[evil_josh]

After several years with commercial PVRs and HDD DVDRs. I have almost completely abandoned them in favor of purpose built HTPCs and xbox clients. Whilst many will disagree, by using current hardware, it is possible to have an easy to use and easy to setup open architectured PC based PVR (HTPC).

This is my take on what works best. Whilst I love my myth box is was not cheap, due to Linux's hardware limitations, but did end up a powerful and reliable machine and without doubt makes a superior server/client network setup.

So I will confine my comments to an HTPC based on M$ VMC software.

• I found the easiest, and ultimately cheapest, combined front end/back end machines to be Vista MC based using motherboards with AMDs 690G or 780G north bridge.
  

Even though Visa (Home Premium) costs money it is often best bought as a package with MS MCE controller pack also these boards require 2gig of memory because of the on-board HDMI supported video

• The tuners for the VMC machine should be BDA Driver based and PCI-E eg. DNTV Live Dual Hybrid
  

An RF splitter is usually needed to feed the tuners of these cards (adding to costs)

• An appropriate case and power supply should be carefully considered
  

It is not necessary to pay >$300 for a good case the one case I did get in that category was rubbish but all the <$180 cases were better (all bought with PSs)

• Forget high power state of the art processors
  

I have good results with lowly old Semptrons with this set up although I am not running BD drives and don't push the resolution beyond 1080i.

Last comment - Remember a machine like this will cost more that most HDPVRs however it is so much better IMO.

If you are considering spending upwards of $1000 a mac mini with eyetv is small, silent, looks great and as a PVR/HTPC is pretty much bulletproof and works out-of-the-box with no substantial tweaking required. Everything is controllable via the apple remote and it works with XMLTV, can schedule recordings from EPG metadata and there are ad-skipping plug-ins available too. If HDD space is an issue it's pretty easy to hide a 500GB USB HDD behind the TV cabinet.

Setup costs are from around $1150 (850 for the mac mini + 300 for eyeTV). Add around $150 for an external 500GB drive.

A DVI - composite cable is also available too which will give you connectability with your current TV until you upgrade.

Just some food for thought...

Josh.

[techo]

My HTPC is very budget, but plays all HD content and it was only around 350 to setup:

Intel E2140

ASUS MB with HD Audio

1gb DDR2

8400GS passive

350! I assume $350.

Hmm I’d like to know how.

I'd suggest just the above 4 items may retail for somewhere "around 350" but probably closer to $360, in Australia.

But wait on how about the rest of the PC. You need to add storage(HDD), a chassis, a powersupply, tuner(s), operating system and applications, optical drive and a controller, but you said you have a harmony there’s $100 on that. Guess that’s cause to celebrate, $250 for all the rest.

You got to be kidding.

[Yapab]

Intel Celeron Dual Core E1400/ 2.00GHz/ 512K Cache/ 800FSB/ LGA775 $67.10

Asus P5GC-MX/ 1333 motherboard $59.00

Seagate Barracuda 80Gb 7200RPM 8Mb SATA 2 $49.00

Lite-On Super Allwrite IDE DVD Re-Writer (20x/8x Dual Layer Black) $30.80

Corsair DDR2 1GB PC-5300/667 (2x512MB) Value Select Ram (VS1GBKIT667D2) $30.80

Intech H340B Black Tower Case (550W) $49.50

Leadtek WinFast DTV2000H PCI - Hybrid, HDTV, FM $69.30

Gigabyte NX84G256HE GF8400GS, 256MB(512MB), 64bit, PCIEx16, DSUB, TV-OUT, DVI, Heatsink $39.00

Sub-Total: $394.50

Harmony remote is not included in the above price, as that is an optional item, the Leadtek pvr comes with a fully functional remote...

So there you are, slightly over what I quoted but that was an estimate of what I paid many months ago. The HDD is small, but a $250GB is only an extra 16 dollars... Maybe you shop at the wrong pc shops?

Yapa

[lintv]

Wow, makes me think whether I should rethink my plan.

I was thinking about setting up a 500MHz Pentium III with 500MB SDRAM using some type of Dual HD tuner card with a MPEG decoder and TV out, since I already have the system and it has a nice little case and a quiet 90 watt power supply. Is anybody running something similar? The MPEG decoder on the card should make up for lack of grunt, shouldn't it?

Trouble is the tuner cards with MPEG decoders tend to be bit pricey, Is a graphics card with an MPEG decoder and TV out plus a basic tuner without those things an acceptable substitute on a low end machine?

I want to go with either MythTV or LinVDR (I suspect LinDVR may be better on a low end machine) are there other Linux solutions out there now?

Once the system is all set up is it really as good as a commercial PVR/DVDR?

What about DVD playback? I haven't been very impressed with DVD playback on my computer system (it could be the drives I suppose). The OS or drive firmware seems to retry rather than skipping errors, for example. mplayer didn't handle menus the last time I looked, and I found VLCs handling of menus a bit flaky - plus other aspects of VLC were flaky.

Thanks for any answers!

[sold]

Trouble is the tuner cards with MPEG decoders tend to be bit pricey,

TV Tuners comes with MPEG encoders not decoders (at least I've never found one that does), so it makes no difference to playback and only affects analogue recording.

Edited June 6, 2008 by sold