Aloysius Posted April 30, 2007 Posted April 30, 2007 http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/a...1&cset=true "ISTANBUL, TURKEY — Amid a sea of Turkish flags, nearly three-quarters of a million people poured into the streets of Istanbul on Sunday to demand that parliament choose a president with no Islamist ties. But the Islamist-rooted ruling party insisted that it would push ahead with the candidacy of Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, chosen last week as its standard-bearer in parliamentary voting scheduled to take place in the coming two weeks." Here is a struggle between a majority elected religious party and a traditionally secularist minority. How do you see it - democracy above all - or secularism above all. Glad I don't have to make these choices!
mello yello Posted April 30, 2007 Posted April 30, 2007 "MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA — Amid a sea of Eureka Stockade flags, nearly three-quarters of a million people poured into the streets of Melbourne on Sunday to demand that parliament abolish its Work Choices Legislations. But the Fascist-rooted ruling party insisted that it would push ahead with the deporting of ex Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone, chosen last week as its new Ambassador to Italy." Here is a struggle between a majority elected Fascist party and a traditionally popularist minority. How do you see it - Democracy above all - or Fascism above all. Glad I can still make these choices! Can you spot the difference?
Aloysius Posted April 30, 2007 Author Posted April 30, 2007 Good morning Mello I think you just said it all Mell Post #2 hijacked a thread about modern day Turkey - home of Ataturk and Anzac cove wrestling with huge issues. And it's twisted into an anti Government of Australia tirade implying somehow we are getting it tough too? You equate a religious party with what exactly in Oz? Good heavens Mello a reality check is urged upon you
mello yello Posted April 30, 2007 Posted April 30, 2007 Good morning Mello I think you just said it all Mell Post #2 hijacked a thread about modern day Turkey - home of Ataturk and Anzac cove wrestling with huge issues. And it's twisted into an anti Government of Australia tirade implying somehow we are getting it tough too? You equate a religious party with what exactly in Oz? Good heavens Mello a reality check is urged upon you Nooo...youre going to have to get up a bit earlier Aloy... ...try again
Aloysius Posted April 30, 2007 Author Posted April 30, 2007 Nooo...youre going to have to get up a bit earlier Aloy......try again Sorry - more important activities taking place earlier
DrP Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 "Modern day Turkey" - geez, with that in the title I was expecting this to be a thread about John Howard (not the actor either).
Aloysius Posted May 1, 2007 Author Posted May 1, 2007 "Modern day Turkey" - geez, with that in the title I was expecting this to be a thread about John Howard (not the actor either).
Aloysius Posted May 1, 2007 Author Posted May 1, 2007 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1177960557...=googlenews_wsj This article discusses some of the issues in Turkey - worth a read if one is interested.
BribieG Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 I lived in Turkey for a year when I was younger and single - worked in a couple of tourist spots but generally just wandered around the place and grew to love the Country with a passion. On their home ground the Turks are lovely lovely people. Sitting on a train, quite often some old fellow with a lunch of 2 hardboiled eggs (obviously his entire food supply for the day) would insist on giving you one of them. There were no hoons, no graffiti, teenagers are of course boisterous but polite and respectful, the most important person in a Turk's life is his old dad, whose opinion is sought on every matter, the elderly are looked after, literacy is 100% And all in a secular state, whilst being deeply religious at the same time, a bit like Irish country people in the old days. If Sharia law gets hold, I can see them turning into another Gaza or Afghanistan which would be a tragedy. Apart from a bit of coal, Turkey has few natural resources, unlike Iraq or Saudi Arabia. Also they are completely unrelated to Arabs (the turkish word "arap" translates roughly like our term "nigger" ) and if they went it alone they would have very few friends. Turks are very level headed, serious and intelligent, unlike some middle eastern peoples who run around jabbering, waving their arms and wailing at the slightest provocation, so hopefully the secularist movement will continue to prevail. It must have taken an enormous provocation to get so many of them out on the streets!
Aloysius Posted May 1, 2007 Author Posted May 1, 2007 I lived in Turkey for a year when I was younger and single - worked in a couple of tourist spots but generally just wandered around the place and grew to love the Country with a passion. On their home ground the Turks are lovely lovely people. Sitting on a train, quite often some old fellow with a lunch of 2 hardboiled eggs (obviously his entire food supply for the day) would insist on giving you one of them. There were no hoons, no graffiti, teenagers are of course boisterous but polite and respectful, the most important person in a Turk's life is his old dad, whose opinion is sought on every matter, the elderly are looked after, literacy is 100% And all in a secular state, whilst being deeply religious at the same time, a bit like Irish country people in the old days. If Sharia law gets hold, I can see them turning into another Gaza or Afghanistan which would be a tragedy. Apart from a bit of coal, Turkey has few natural resources, unlike Iraq or Saudi Arabia. Also they are completely unrelated to Arabs (the turkish word "arap" translates roughly like our term "nigger" ) and if they went it alone they would have very few friends. Turks are very level headed, serious and intelligent, unlike some middle eastern peoples who run around jabbering, waving their arms and wailing at the slightest provocation, so hopefully the secularist movement will continue to prevail. It must have taken an enormous provocation to get so many of them out on the streets! Yes - I have a cousin who recently moved to live there permanently - She has big wraps on Turkish folks too.
aztec Posted May 1, 2007 Posted May 1, 2007 There was a show on SBS a few weeks back about an ex-Turk living in USA who is the most "gagged" person in the US ever. She was employed by the FBI as a translator. It turned out the the American Turkish Council has infiltrated the FBI and that nuclear materials are channeled through Turkey to countries such as Israel. The corruption goes all the way to the Whitehouse. Sibel Edmonds Interesting read if you have nothing else to do.
Thudd1503560234 Posted May 7, 2007 Posted May 7, 2007 How do you see it - democracy above all - or secularism above all. Glad I don't have to make these choices!I think they're worried that if their secularism goes, their democracy will follow shortly afterwards. So not such a difficult choice perhaps? (and if they go islamic/sharia law based, I don't think they'd be a member of the EU for much longer and that couldn't be a good outcome for them economically)
Aloysius Posted May 7, 2007 Author Posted May 7, 2007 I think they're worried that if their secularism goes, their democracy will follow shortly afterwards. So not such a difficult choice perhaps? (and if they go islamic/sharia law based, I don't think they'd be a member of the EU for much longer and that couldn't be a good outcome for them economically) I appreciate what you are saying there Thudd - the difficulty to me is that if you believe in democracy and voting, and a majority say they want to move away from a strict secularism - what then - do you say secularism must be more important than democracy? That's my difficulty - I support secularism and democracy!
Thudd1503560234 Posted May 7, 2007 Posted May 7, 2007 Part of the problem they were having, if I have this correct, is that when the ruling party - an Islamic party - put up their guy for nomination as prime minister, there was such concern over where he'd lead the party that the opposition parties didn't participate in the nomination process. The opposition then claimed that because of their non-participation that there wasn't a quorum and therefore the nomination was invalid. The ruling party claimed that the Turkish constitution doesn't set down a specific number for a quorum and therefore the nomination was valid. So you have a consitutional crisis on top of the religious forment, with the military vowing to "defend the constitution", which they have a history of rigorously defending, in a manner of speaking.
Aloysius Posted May 7, 2007 Author Posted May 7, 2007 Part of the problem they were having, if I have this correct, is that when the ruling party - an Islamic party - put up their guy for nomination as prime minister, there was such concern over where he'd lead the party that the opposition parties didn't participate in the nomination process. The opposition then claimed that because of their non-participation that there wasn't a quorum and therefore the nomination was invalid. The ruling party claimed that the Turkish constitution doesn't set down a specific number for a quorum and therefore the nomination was valid. So you have a consitutional crisis on top of the religious forment, with the military vowing to "defend the constitution", which they have a history of rigorously defending, in a manner of speaking. Yep - all very complicated and as some others have remarked - Turks generally are great folks - I would hate to see the place get all polarised and lot's of ordinary folks suffer. So far there seems to be a fair bit of restraint being shown - a good sign IMO
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