Moving To Server / Collaborative Pc And Media Client/s

[digitaladvisor]

As we are well aware certified UPnP™ (Universal Plug and Play) AV (Audio/Video) Media Server/s automatically recognize UPnP™ devices within a network. High Definition video modes require wiring of a network due to bandwidth limitations of wireless 54g in most present media player clients. This can be used to exchange audio, video, and image files via the local network wih other collaborative PCs with compatible software and decoders.

The server video/audio/picture enables clients, that is players that request services, to play files located in shared folders on the server. The PC server can then link up to other home entertainment electronics devices (lounge display) to create a unified collaborative media center. Media server software can automatically supply the files in the appropriate

decoding / streaming format for any player in question. The higher specced the PC (HTPC) the better the delivery of encode to the client but only if the client does not have NATIVE capability to decode.

Just look how far the PC has come in the few years. Consider Sony at the trade show, the VAIO Type X. This monolith-black PC server has room for seven separate TV tuners and features a 3.6GHz P4 processor and a terabyte of storage. We probably won't see them outside of Japan in Australia. This kind of hardware is understandable from a media server perspective for the home.

PC's are not without problems. PCs have never been easy to maintain and, by aiming a PC at the home, manufacturers are targeting people who have trouble setting their VCRs. PCs, IMHO remain too complicated to sit under the TV as the ongoing factors of constant manintenance takes it's toll on your time (Been doing this for over six years). They're hardly quiet either, despite the arrival of fan-less Pentium M systems, and there's also the sobering fact that a PC is three times as expensive as a DVD recorder as they plument in cost. Aiming the PC at the living room is the easy but getting people to put one in the lounge room is a far bigger challenge.

Recently HP has cancelled its Media boxes. http://mediaholic.tv/2007/04/hp-drops-its-...enter-line.html

From the Web site:

"The company instead will focus its energy on MediaSmart, the new brand of TVs, mobile devices and media servers - this is not Microsoft Media Center Extenders, but HP's own implementation of the UPnP A/V and DLNA standards."

Anyhow, I am experimenting with the media server/ media client approach. I have been gathering various open source server softwares (UPnP™) and commerical applications in seeking the most stable and usable solution.

So it's on with my "digital adventure". The approach would unify resources of three study/home office PCs, one being a dedicated media server with various DVB-T and DVB-S tuners, folders, shared videos, DVD devices etc to Media client and detection.

I have a few requirements on the client box that goes into the lounge. These are:

1. Around $500.00

2. Must be 1080p capable

3. HDCP and Digital Rights Management aware

4. Soley contollable by a simple remote. One remote and no complicated scripts etc.

5. Stable

6. Well supported and updated.

7. Totally quiet

8. Removal of mutiple steps to do things.

9. Increase the usability in simply watching a screen without other issues.

10. Removal of Operating Systems - instant on and off

11. Fall back to wireless.

12. Collaborate multiple PCs as a media gathering resource.

13. No hacking - simple out of the box and understandable workarounds.

DA

[drubie]

That's a hell of a wish list. Nothing I'm aware of comes even close (maybe the Mediagate 350HD or similar devices).

The Xbox 360 *might* do what you want after the hackers are finished with it. Even the really good, previous generation media extenders need either customised software or various bits of hacking to get them working reasonably (me? Neuston MC-500 and Linux MTPCenter - not HD but great for music, SD televison and divx based viewing). A HD version of this would make me happy.

[digitaladvisor]

Hi drubie

Presently waiting on testing units of these Media Clients. After I get the chance to test them I will evaluate the best one out of the few.

Added:

Thought I'd add an explaining video from Cebit regarding the EVA8000 by Netgear. ETA Australia - In around 2 weeks time.

The trend most likely will be streaming technologies / Buffering / Recoding and final delivery to large entertainment screens. The possibility to embed such devices into Plasmas and Large displays looks like a normal eventual evolution.

It makes sense to do this as very few realise that when a TV has a HD tuner - it ALSO has the DECODING silicon chip (like a specific CPU) to decode MPEG 2 @ High Level (1080i).

DA

[digitaladvisor]

Well in testing some software it appears that Nero 7 under Home Media configured to a reliable Digital Tuner with good BDA drivers (in this case Pinnacle Dual Tuners) works really well in the Server side detection.

The Nero 7 acts as a very good UPnp Server.

The client software that worked very well was InterVideo DVD by selecting the UPnp. I could change channels (client instructing the server with tuner) and easily watch digital TV on the client PC with InterVideo DVD installed.

I am well aware of many routes to same result and their a few server/client open source I am yet to test. The problem with many of these programs is the configuration nightmare one has to go through.

Still waiting on the Netgear hardware.

The client PC was a PIII 800 MHz with 256MB of RAM with a 9100 ATI card running WindowsXP professional bloated with all kinds of codecs and has not been fresh installed for over 18 months!

The network router was a Belkin both wireless and wired up (Server to Client via net wire).

Another discovery was prior to intalling the net switch Channel 7 stuttered badly on the server PC. Possible cause was using the WindowsXP firewall based software solution rather using the net router's firewall. The Router is connected to a ADSL Modem as well.

DA

[drubie]

I am well aware of many routes to same result and their a few server/client open source I am yet to test. The problem with many of these programs is the configuration nightmare one has to go through.

The network router was a Belkin both wireless and wired up (Server to Client via net wire).

Another discovery was prior to intalling the net switch Channel 7 stuttered badly on the server PC. Possible cause was using the WindowsXP firewall based software solution rather using the net router's firewall. The Router is connected to a ADSL Modem as well.

DA

Router wouldn't cause that, unless you're tuning to a HD signal and something isn't keeping up. I had a fair bit of stuttering on my setup before I replaced my bunny ears with a proper outside UHF aerial. CPU usage was relatively high (not sure why - something to do with catching up with errors I suppose).

Interestingly, the CPU load on my old PC (AMD2100+, 512Mb) now stays around 1% when pulling dvb signals - the kids can play (linux or internet) games on the thing and it doesn't upset the TV viewing on the Neuston. However, try watching one of the channels on the PC and the CPU heads out to 30% (SD) to 90% (HD). The display software in linux is obviously low grade dog food, but the server side stuff is astonishingly efficient. I didn't try wireless, have been using 100Mb wired connections.

I hear you on the configuration side of things - none of the software (windows or PC) is particularly easy.

I think you ought to consider a newer PC if you can afford it though - 800Mhz is on the ancient side of old

[digitaladvisor]

Router wouldn't cause that, unless you're tuning to a HD signal and something isn't keeping up. I had a fair bit of stuttering on my setup before I replaced my bunny ears with a proper outside UHF aerial. CPU usage was relatively high (not sure why - something to do with catching up with errors I suppose).

Interestingly, the CPU load on my old PC (AMD2100+, 512Mb) now stays around 1% when pulling dvb signals - the kids can play (linux or internet) games on the thing and it doesn't upset the TV viewing on the Neuston. However, try watching one of the channels on the PC and the CPU heads out to 30% (SD) to 90% (HD). The display software in linux is obviously low grade dog food, but the server side stuff is astonishingly efficient. I didn't try wireless, have been using 100Mb wired connections.

I hear you on the configuration side of things - none of the software (windows or PC) is particularly easy.

I think you ought to consider a newer PC if you can afford it though - 800Mhz is on the ancient side of old

I think something strange was happening with Tesltra's polling of the Computer's NIC connection. Seven was the only one. HD fine - contradiction.

I hear you on the server/client model for this stuff, I seriously think now it is the way to go. Very cost efficient now.

DA

[digitaladvisor]

After hearing what some of my friends are being charged to automate the home theatre along with video and audio I did some hard nosed cost analysis myself on the file server / client model.

Most (nearly all) high cost video distribution in a home distribute seem to be composite video only or RF Feeds set to some tunable UHF band. Pathetic quality.

AC3/SP/DIF Distributed Sound . Do not count on that.

Most video/audio automation is still in the stone age - backward and very out of date. The out of the world and out of touch pricing reflects a snobbery in this market niche.

So far it has escaped being touched by the onslaught of the digital revolution making automation a reachable goal for the average person in the home.

Very very soon this kind of thing will be dead whereby installers of $50,000 + distribution systems for consumer households will be the dinosaurs of a forgotten era.

Well I costed my own and time will tell whether a complete portable/wireless/wired/CAT 6 Solution / Client / Server Video / sound streaming solution can come under $6,000 for a fully wired house (but using already purchased computer based components and strategic located clients and Tablet PC solution. (One that comes to mind that is the very keenly priced -- the Samsung Model).

So that's my challenge. And my solution will be very compelling and practical. Much more then just dimming lights and dropping a projector screen down the wall.

DA

[LukeF1503559517]

The higher specced the PC (HTPC) the better the delivery of encode to the client but only if the client does not have NATIVE capability to decode.

I dont think you can send already encoded video/audio to a client pc. If so, what software are you using?

[digitaladvisor]

I dont think you can send already encoded video/audio to a client pc. If so, what software are you using?

The model of thin / fat client is now somewhat blurred in the context of Video streaming.

In the server model / client model for video streaming the server can RE-ENCODE. Nero 7 can actually encode from MPEG to MEPG 2 at higher bitrates along with levels of H.264 - I think VC 1 is that level.

In other words if the client does not have a certain codec to decode the stream or enough wireless bandwidth, the server can re-encode the video to the client that is more suitable or one the client has in its decoding table lookup of codecs. This works with PC based clients as well to address your question directly.

The thoughts turn to the idea - well if the server re-encodes a given tuned channel to another level - MPEG 1 for example this opens up the possiblity to save the stream being played on the client to a time shift capture as well. The possiblities to re-encode DTV on the fly are then possible. The understanding is that the server must have re-encoding codecs to do so and enough resources to BUFFER that stream after a suitable length of original received video stream is examined (server side) and then re-encoded suitable for streaming.

That is why on a PIII 800 with 256 MB RAM digital TV is then possible without stutter and dropping frames of the stream. The latest situation is to view and watch thousands of satellite and TV stations from server streamers on the Internet. The quality may not be the best but it is watchable like ordinary TV. Other factors of course are the interent connection you have to buffer enough of internet video (bandwidth) to be watchable. The fibre optic connection of the internet here in Australia then opens the way for DIGITAL video streaming of TV. Something broadcasters, FTA and Cable/Satellite providers do not want to happen.

I hope that cuts through some of the jargon and the hype surrounding what Video streaming is. It opens up possiblities never thought of before.

You see - you no longer NEED the HPTC model sitting under the TV. It makes more sense IMHO - to move that "super" HTPC to your study/ fourth bedroom and place a media client under your plasma/LCD/RPTV/TV etc etc.

Now with the LIKES of EVA700 (HD 1080i component) and the EVA8000 (HD 1080p HDMI) by Netgear selling here for $345 and $505 - Street value - the possiblity looks very attractive to do so.

Think of this way - you place four digital tuners (even a satellite DVB-S card ) in that "super" HTPC server and DISTRIBUTE digital TV to your whole home via clients - the beauty of this is how you have created a virtual video cache on demand for the home. And there's more - suppose as per the Netgear each client were aware of the other - that is when you paused on one you pick up the rest of the "show" in your bedroom or family room etc. As for the "WAF" - one remote - one device that becomes used by everyone in the home.

DA

[Couj]

All very interesting. I am currently looking at home automation as part of my renovation and the audio/video side of it has been troubling me. The solution I am leaning towards at the moment is having a centralised NAS (maybe a ReadyNas NV plus with 4 x 500 GB drives) feeding a sonos system for sound and stand alone media centres for each TV (two at present). Although I can't do this for less than $6,000 it is still a lot cheaper than most of the integrated systems that are being offered by home automation installers and the sound and picture quality should be pretty good. The downside is that I will still be subject to the normal software glitches that are inherent in using a media centre pc.

[digitaladvisor]

Hi couj

I have this idea in my head. I guess its a DIY vision of what I want to do - why - because its there and begging to be done. My background is in Client/Server analysis for medium to large scale business solutions - net / intranet and internet based from database perspectives and user freindly frontends.

The model of video server streaming is fairly new to me but not totally "alien" territory.

I propose not only to have a media centric server - what form and to what level I take this would be up to me. If I can take disconnected technologies and bring the whole thing together I think I can do well out of it.

There is a word that keeps coming to me - singlarity. Stop unnecessary REPLICATION of TASKS and information - e.g. Who would ever do this?.... We all get regular document statements like electricity, car rego, rates, Telco etc etc. Would I file this stuff in FIVE DIFFERENT locations around the home?

The same thing applies to PCs. We fiddle and fiddle with this and that - never thinking that if we stop repeating the things that work and locate them in ONE PLACE we'll find them ALWAYS and the system just WORKS.

For DTV stuff (digital tuners) it has not been an easy journey. One of the best things that ever happened in this area was the development of centralised drivers - BDA for such add ons. It has taken awhile but those BDA drivers provide the way to CENTRALISE and hence DISTRIBUTION to other devices (apart from PCs). These "FOREIGN" devices (media clients) and there remote controls control the recording and viewing etc etc. TV and Media should be controlled by you and not TV or PC driven by mouse and keyboard devices all the time. Afterall it is an entertainment media and should be watched on your terms and not on some elses terms or some sticky obscure WindowsXP operation that just shows up on one home PC almost to total distraction to real life.

The basic backbone in any home automation and cheapest way is to get the wiring correct. I am thinking along the lines of C-Bus but with my provided hardware approach. There system is based around (perhaps up to 1,000 to 2,000 meters) runs of CAT 5 cabling in a newly constructed home. The cost factor is in the programming of the system and front end software that works with it - not the cabling or hardware to some extent. Even so it seems to to lack a distinct awareness in being adaptive to "nerve centre" everyday activities. Even HD specific video sharing around the home seems vague on this system.

Another sticky issue - the panel controls. Expensive very small touch colour panels. I would prefer the portablity of a device (like good PDA or Tablet PC) being workable and movable around the home. Hand writing recognisation software is pretty reliable. How much do we want to replicate those expensive fixed touch panels around the home? Should they really be wall fixed and even so do we want them that small? Perhaps cheaper PDA clients would do the trick ANYWHERE with greater clarity of operation. Perhaps just one.

And example would be to have an intergrated approach like the WAY WE FUNCTION and adaptable to OUR timeframe and lifestyle. Things like diet issues and grocery purchase issues, the mundane tracking of groceries. For example: where you design your meals for say two weeks. Immediately the central system checks what you have in your pantry and do not have. It places those alerts on the shopping list and also gives one the means to add efficiency to an everyday mundane exercise. It just one of those things that are useful or should be usable. Going grocery shopping - everyone does this and has to do it.

Of course we always have wireless connectivity with other devices and systems should be open and not a closed shop to other add ons like sensors for air conditioning. The list becomes endless but possible.

I'd like to thank the author of Web Schedular - this seven day EPG and recording schedular has never failed or let me down. The only time it has is when I do the settings wrong like scheduling five recordings all firing at the same time and running out of non allocated HD Tuner cards! It has inspired me with this server concept and distribution idea.

DA

[murrayt]

DA et al

Actually what you are setting out looks remarkably like the recent announcement of new devices that Nebula Electronics made in the UK

There is a server device (or an existing Nebula DigiTV device in a PC) and a media client box at each location.

I have no idea on what pricing will be entailed, and/or performance capability but it seems generically the way to go.

[Couj]

I like what you are saying. Sadly I don't have the skills to program and set up a server of this nature. I'm very keen to hear how you go though.

I've also struggled with the concept of controls for a system of this nature. One of the advantages of the Sonos system, in my opinion, is the ability to have portable controls that are not outrageously expensive (although I admit that they are not cheap) - sadly though, these controls don't control anything else. I'm also looking at a few RTI devices - but these get very expensive (especially once you factor in programming). I really like the logitech harmony range but they don't quite have the level of functionality that I am looking for. And the Crestron stuff is just out of my league.

Good luck with your project and please keep us informed.

[renura]

$6000 is FAR too much money. It will not be long that you can have a server (with five digital tuners) and 4 clients for under $2000

[digitaladvisor]

DA et al

Actually what you are setting out looks remarkably like the recent announcement of new devices that Nebula Electronics made in the UK

There is a server device (or an existing Nebula DigiTV device in a PC) and a media client box at each location.

I have no idea on what pricing will be entailed, and/or performance capability but it seems generically the way to go.

I read the details about Nebula here.. http://www.nebula-media.com/products/HMS/HMS.asp for the first time today. It looks like the model for video/audio everyone maybe moving to.

The concept is not new - it's just that recent releases of media clients and their cost has made this very compelling.

My PC systems consist now of many digital tuners (6 +) over four PCs and upgrades to flat panel on home office based Pcs. One recent edition being a Acer LCD widescreen 22" with DVI-D that is HDCP enabled with a resolution of 1650 * 1050.

You can see this sort of thing working with software server enabled software - For Example: You do not load Nero 7 Quickstart as there is already the server application easily assessed directly without loading all the other bloated stuff.

With InterVideo Six or any media player that is server side aware you should be able to test.

Centralising control of all media results in better control of your time and you'll find dabbling in this stuff won't eat into your time as much.

DA

[digitaladvisor]

$6000 is FAR too much money. It will not be long that you can have a server (with five digital tuners) and 4 clients for under $2000

I have allowed some change from the $6,000. It's for wiring and at least one broadband capable wireless tablet PC and a security system that is wired into the server PC with other wireless sensors around the home.

Either way the advantage of the server is in proportion to what it can do and centralise activity. Media clients are connected to the server to those wired/wireless sensors/tuners/other controls.

DA

[scholefn]

Hi

After mucking around with a HTPC for a couple of years I'm also considering heading down the path I think's being discussed in this thread. I have a Toppy (5000PVRt - SD) that is still the main device for serious viewing. I've recently bought a more serious display and I'm now thinking about HD. The HD Toppy looks good but's buggy and I want to do other HTPC things, eg. play music, watch home movies, watch Kids DVDs that I've stored on a HDD, etc.

My current HTPC plays music, home movies & Kid's DVDs and also records TV shows but it's almost as a backup only. We rarely watch them off the HTPC. The HTPC is not very simple, though. I need a simpler media client connected to the TV to play music, watch recorded TV, and maybe stream TV.

After reading this thread I like the look of the Netgear EVA8000 thingy. There are some demo videos on You Tube from a US dude that are interesting. It looks like close to what I'm after.

My question relates to HDTV. My HTPC can record HDTV (eg. Nine HD) ok but doesn't play it back well. I'm too tight to fork out the money to make the HTPC a decent specced machine. The EVA8000 has a feature to stream Live TV from a PC. Does anyone know whether the ability to do this will depend on the power of the PC or not?

Thanks

Nick

[drubie]

Hi

My question relates to HDTV. My HTPC can record HDTV (eg. Nine HD) ok but doesn't play it back well. I'm too tight to fork out the money to make the HTPC a decent specced machine. The EVA8000 has a feature to stream Live TV from a PC. Does anyone know whether the ability to do this will depend on the power of the PC or not?

Thanks

Nick

Nick - the server PC does very little work when encoding the digital signal for streaming. Using HTTP streaming on my setup, it never goes much above 1% for SD transmissions. HD grabbing to disk is a bit more work, but nothing like the amount of work the decode/display software can use. the EVA8000 looks like a nice machine, but I'd double check it can do 1080i and 50Hz before spending any money, otherwise the HD picture will end up stuttering. Also, you will need to use a wired connection, even the fastest wireless connection won't keep up with HD imho.

[scholefn]

Thanks - I'm planning to have the media client wired to the network. Sounds like my HTPC spec should be able to work. Will be interested in seeing some reviews of the EVA8000 when someone gets one in Aus.

[F111]

Great thread gone quiet!

I'm thinking of moving toward HTPC and wondering about the 'ultimate' set up. I'm still trying to understand my network & HTPC needs at this stage, as I dont have either, before I go forward.

Backing up multiple PCs is becoming an issue, avoiding duplicated files/pics on laptops and PCs is another now we have 4 in the house.

This has been a very interesting read. Maybe time for a Topic Update and what is everyone up to in this regard!

[myrantz]

Great thread gone quiet!

I'm thinking of moving toward HTPC and wondering about the 'ultimate' set up. I'm still trying to understand my network & HTPC needs at this stage, as I dont have either, before I go forward.

I reckon to have a "Ultimate setup" you still need to have your house wired up (might as well go all the way with patch panels, distributions, IR relays as an option, etc).... Costs to do this alone (in WA) by a "certified" cabler is way too prohibitive... Quotes I gathered ranged from $2500 (CAT5e) to $4880 (CAT6)....

I would love to do this for my place... But I just don't have the money, yet..

[Guest Beasty]

I reckon to have a "Ultimate setup" you still need to have your house wired up (might as well go all the way with patch panels, distributions, IR relays as an option, etc).... Costs to do this alone (in WA) by a "certified" cabler is way too prohibitive... Quotes I gathered ranged from $2500 (CAT5e) to $4880 (CAT6)....

I would love to do this for my place... But I just don't have the money, yet..

I was lucky to be able to do this in the place I moved into - at present there are 5 x double points around the house (10 total) fed into a switch in my garage. Now, I did this myself with basic know-how (from the web) and a father-in-law who got me 150m of cable from an old job site he was working on. I have access under my house and know how to use power tools (like a drill, a hammer and cable clips & cable crimper).

If you live in a concrete slab house, then it becomes bloody hard. Having under-house access and timber floors made my life easy.

Give it a go yourself!

[myrantz]

I was lucky to be able to do this in the place I moved into - at present there are 5 x double points around the house (10 total) fed into a switch in my garage. Now, I did this myself with basic know-how (from the web) and a father-in-law who got me 150m of cable from an old job site he was working on. I have access under my house and know how to use power tools (like a drill, a hammer and cable clips & cable crimper).

If you live in a concrete slab house, then it becomes bloody hard. Having under-house access and timber floors made my life easy.

Give it a go yourself!

I know this doesn't stop anybody really... But isn't cabling your own house technically illegal in Australia? Especially if the cabling ends up connected to the telephone grid?

[digitaladvisor]

Great thread gone quiet!

I'm thinking of moving toward HTPC and wondering about the 'ultimate' set up. I'm still trying to understand my network & HTPC needs at this stage, as I dont have either, before I go forward.

Backing up multiple PCs is becoming an issue, avoiding duplicated files/pics on laptops and PCs is another now we have 4 in the house.

This has been a very interesting read. Maybe time for a Topic Update and what is everyone up to in this regard!

It is indeed a new area for me. I've owned the EVA8000 for some three weeks now.

Overall the results are okay.

It plays wirelessly (54g) the following really well:

1. ISO stored DVD's

2. Folder structure DVD on hard drive

3. Still encrypted DVD's Straight from PC DVD driver with AnyDVD doing de-encryption on

4. 720p/1080i/576i TS and TP recorded TV directly from Hard drive _ but 720p/1080i and uncompressed AVI struggles.

5. MP3 easy.

6. H.264 upto 10 Mbps.

Belkin wireless router used.

UPnp to work better requires wired network along with mandate for HD or MEPG at high levels. The cut out for the chipset present in the EVA8000 cuts out at around 16mbps in MPEG 2. 1080p output is feature of this unit via HDMI.

I'm in transition (moving once again) and my concept of wiring places the major termination of most wiring back to the office/study in a home.

Of special note if you are persuing Blu Ray and HD DVD ready then you need to ensure the following chipset is incorporated into the the device. I'm certain that this chipset will appear in media streamer / clients by mid next year. When one comes to market I'll be buying one.

The following chipset in media devices ensure Bluray and HD DVd compliance- Sigma SMP8630 Series

Secure Media Processors with MPEG-4.10 (H.264) and SMPTE 421M (VC-1)

Regards,

DA

[murrayt]

treblid

Yep

You need to be licensed by the Australian Communications Authority for the class of installation you are performing

It used to be called the Austel licence.