Hd Stb's How Long?

[muddles]

Hi all,

I have been looking at comments here and from my own experiences of digital so far and i feel that there are a few things that i just need to find out peoples opinions on.

This isn't just about HD STB's but also SD as well.

We have now been receiving digital services for a few years now (not sure how many but suffice to say enough) and yet there does not seem to be any what i would call great movement in the improvement of hardware to the point of acceptable stability of the product.

I don't know if i am describing it right so here is an example.

I go to a shop and i ask to purchase a TV and i get what i would expect to be a fully working product that continues to work without glitches for at least 5 - 10 years if not more, and i can do so with a reasonable amount of confidence that this will be the case if a spend a few dollars to go above the bottom dwellers and even then some of those can and are just as likely to last the distance.

But i don't see that level of confidence in this product HD or SD STB's. I understand that even buying something like a TV i will still find a lemon every now and then but as a whole we as consumers still have a great deal of confidence in purchasing a new TV.

Now we are reaching 3rd 4th and even in some cases 5th generation STB's from manufactures. There seems to be such a level of disparity of the ability to receive signal or to display it without visual or sound glitches (which is 1 of those promised land type things that we were all told would be the case with the change over to digital) that is attributed to the hardware buy its own internal measuring standards.

e.g. i have a stb that indicates that i am getting 99% signal quality yet i still get hiccups that are more than a little annoying.

(and i have made sure that it is my stb that is the problem but as it is beyond warranty and the myriad of for and against threads for just about any STB leaves me a bit hesitant to lash out the several hundred dollars to buy a new 1)

What i really want to know is this a maturity issue with DVB or a lack of support by manufactures to improve products beyond adding a HDD to an existing decoder. And if it is the latter what can we do about it beyond the whole take the poor STB back to the retailer and hope that they will let you take home another unit that performs a tad better but still leaves us all wanting more from it including image and sound stability, improved functionality and ease of use that seem only to take the tiny steps that you see a child learning to walk taking.

Have manufactures become gun shy because there meager efforts are often criticized and they see better more traditional avenues to make money from. Or is it that they take a tumble each time they find a fault and don't see the point in expending the money to help those of us that have purchased the relevant STB or use the knowledge gained to improve the product.

I am not out to stop the digital revolution as when it works well it is fantastic and i can't wait till it is the norm rather than the exception, but also i cant wait till i can feel that i don't need the analogue channels to remain as a backup that provide a more consistent if just a tad fuzzier image and sound that doesn't pop.

I dont know if this makes sense to the people here as this is just the ravings of a lunatic but please let me and if you feel like it the industry know what you feel.

cheers

muddles

[mtv]

Yes, there have been STB issues, however, there are more problems with getting a quality signal into the receivers, than the receivers themselves.

Initially, the Federal Govt said that in most cases, your existing TV antenna will work. Wrong! In most cases, we find that antennas need to be upgraded, usually with coax cable as well.

Digital is a whole new ball game and successful DIY installations are almost a thing of the past, as expensive digital-signal measuring equipment is required to locate the best mounting postition for the antenna and to align it to provide reliable reception.

So before people determine their reception problems are because of their STB... ensure you have reliable signals first.

[muddles]

Hi MTV,

I can tell you for certain that i have great signal. Not just as measured by the onboard functionality of the STB in question but also by an antenna installer who redid the entire house with full check of signal and also rewiring to rg6 quad shield coax, f connectors right up to each outlet replaced the old box kite looking antenna and put in a new amplifier.

I understand that there is still a great deal that needs to be done with the transmission quality as well and i do not dismiss that for a lot of people this is their problem but also in a lot of cases it still boils down to the STB in question even after having an update to antenna and wiring by professional installers.

But i do come back to a lot of reports here in the forums that in all point to a not so high level of satisfaction with any manufacturer of STB's. For every person that says they love a particular STB there is a person that says they have had issues.

It seems that this is almost a 1:1 basis for most brands and models on for and against, whether it just be niggling issues or outright failure it still adds up to what seems to be a need for improvement in the hardware that at this stage doesn't seem to be at the top of any manufactures priority list.

cheers

muddles

[pgdownload]

Hi muddles,

Some good points but I'll be the industries 'apologist'.

1) The TV industry is 50+ years old. The digital industry is less than a decade.

2) The TV industry has a long lineage of standardisation. In the digital area is still making up bits as we go along. Different world standards, and each network is doing its own thing trying to broadcast digital TV as they see fit. And then each region has its own set of approaches - all these are under a broad umbrella spec but its the little variations, oversights, etc. that cause lots of problems (see 3 below)

3) Digital transmissions are buy there nature a bit unforgiving (ie its either on or off, right or wrong). Analogue is designed to allow a bit more grey - I mean this in the broader sense of the idea and not just PQ.

4) I'd also suggest that you're looking at skewed reports. The vast majority of users are quite happy with how there box functions. You do get lemons (in any brand) and these are often what get reported here. But systemic issues with boxes are much less common. There are also lots of real cheap crappy boxes that as with anything are going to have more issues than normal. If you're talking a good solid SD box ($140) (or now days a HD box)

5) Many of the issues relate to qualitative stuff like PQ. People just don't know what to expect. They're spending $1000 on new equipment and can quite often find they get a worse image than their old TV. Retailers have been generally pretty happy to sell first and ask questions later. For that matter, unlike 'traditional' TV technology retailers are often about as knowlegable about digital as their customers (often less so)

6) But perhaps where most issues arise is not digital TV per say, but the new devices like DVDRs and PVRs which are much more complex than things like a STB. People are going to not know how to use these devices correctly and they are also more likely to go wrong. Wait another 10 years and we might have some reliable and easy to use digital experience.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[muddles]

Hi PG,

There is no need to be an apologist. This is the information and opinion i am looking for.

When we think about the age of the industry and in general at the pace of technology obsolescence does the 50yrs of experience count for the level of stability.

I agree that there is a great deal of this involved but at the current pace of technological innovation 10 years now = 30 years then, so is the expectation of a bit more maturity reasonable?

Do we have 10 years to wait if the whole 2012 shutdown date is held to?

Have the manufacturers rushed into creating the super cheap STB's too fast and thus polluting the market place with poor product that is not helping the image of digital tv?

I suppose my view is skewed but where else do i have to look too for this sort of info. Other forums on digital tv are from Overseas and don't relate to our market.

Should we have waited then until a we were sure that a good standard was readily used more often across the world, not that we can turn back. Did we choose the wrong standard or just like so many others thought that it met our needs and by in large it does but it just isn't the best we could have got.

Could we have done the whole wait for a better system like we did with PAL over NTSC?

I will admit that there is a greater need on the sales people to up their game as i have seen a few too many times when people have asked Q's abut STB's and been given a load of bull. Also having these things selling for $50 off a supermarket shelf may help a few more people get into the digital tv game but doesn't help create a good image when there is no advice in what else the purchaser may need to do to get there signal up to scratch.

Regards

Muddles

[pgdownload]

current pace of technological innovation 10 years now = 30 years then

Reading that, one might well decide that this great 'pace' has indeed come at the expence of product maturity A growing digital difference is after sale development. Increasingly, products have both bugs fixed and features added well after youv'e handed over your cash. This allows bad products onto the shelves, but it also gets them fixed (if firmware updates) are indeed issued.

Do we have 10 years to wait if the whole 2012 shutdown date is held to?

Don't think its a real issue. SD technology is mature enough to ensure we'll generally all be able to watch digital TV. Beyond that I suspose its up to those old 'market forces' to drive innovation and improvement.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Fusion1503560145]

Whether everybody is perfectly happy with their digital tv product, there are few people on the forum saying

"I am going back to analogue..' The reason being, that the little annoyances around a digital setup by far offset the benefits of a big wide screen and top picture clarity. It is the equivalent of prefering Colour TV over BW, colour TV would have to have been a complete disaster for people to go back to BW.

cheers

Fusion

[Keepleft]

One of the best set of questions/observations in forum a long while.

That Muddles has had a proper install, with Quad Sheild RG6 no less is at least a good thing.

For myself, atm I am using a DVB-S combined DVB-T PVR (Mediastar DW820).

Free to air Sat channels I view, in addition to regular terrrestrial are; Russia Today (english), The Italian TV Network (english and new), Arirang TV (South Korea and english), Al Jazeera International, and heaps more mostly various languages if you want them. Good for news coverage, this can be done on a small pay tv dish. You can then if you wish, go to a C band dish, BBC World, VOATV, NOW TV etc and so on.

One can then, of course, add in the 'Aurora' service intended for those in lousy terrestrial reception areas, or even a pay service such as SelecTV if the decoder has a card slot or Common Interface port.

My point being, it really is cost effective to expand your viewing potential through the use of decoders that do BOTH DVB-S and DVB-T, often called "combo" units. All too often folk restrict their viewing potential!

NB, Another new satellite service, FTA, soon to start is "PRESS TV", an Iranian news service in English (on B3).