Mining Man Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 I have the green light from the CFO for a speaker upgrade after our wedding next month. Budget is about $4k (forget about AUD vs NZD - for all intents and purposes it is the same). Long term goal is to upgrade all 5.1 speakers to a 7.2 set up, and add a power amp and dedicated 2 channel gear. And unlike the Bose mistake of 4 years ago, I'd like to get it right the first (or rather, second) time. So, at this stage, I'm going for the front 3 only from the $4k. Now, this is where it gets interesting. The purists say that in-home demo with a set of run in speakers is the best test. But this immediately limits your options to those speakers that you can actually in-home demo. Next best is a side by side comparison in-store with your own amp and sources. But this is also limited by the brands and options in-store. I'm in Sydney next week, and hoped I would have the chance to demo 4 options that I can readily source over here: Paradigm Studio 60 & 470cc, KEF iQ9 & iQ6c, KEF XQ1 & XQ2c and B&W 603 & 600cc. (Other options that sit above or below the budget include Polk, PSB, Klipsch, Athena and a couple of NZ brands.) I have been in touch with Steve at Eastwood Hi Fi, and unfortunately, we couldn't come to an arrangement for me to demo these 4 models in-store with a Harman Kardon (my AVR at home). This was due, more than anything else, to a shortage of sales staff. I also respect the fact that Steve had nothing tangible to gain, other than bourbon and / or cash bribes. As an aside, his advice and general discussion was excellent and appreciated. In short, this advice was to just go for the Paradigms and be done with it. Now, I'm happy to take this advice and run. The fact is, the Paradigms represent a great value option (I have a quote for v3 60's / 470cc for a tick under $4k NZD - rrp over here is a tick above $5k), and deliver a pretty neutral sound that suits the wide tastes in music and movies in the MM household. Additionally, in-home demos would be a complete waste of time, because we'll be moving again in 18 months, and then probably every 3 years after that. I believe this would also be a reason for going for a more neutral sound. I guess my question for discussion is: how hung up should I get on demoing before committing to such a neutral (and well regarded) front sound stage, given that any demos I could potentially do will not be comparing apples with apples? I've been reading and researching for a while now, and keep coming back to the Paradigms in 9 out of 10 cases. Okay, so I'm not quite sure what the point of such a philosophical discussion is. But I would be interested to know how others rationalise their purchases given an imperfect testing regime.
betty boop Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 MM steve at eastwood sells both paradigm and HK AVRs its bollocks he cant demo. I somehow get the feelign that he is jsut railroading you into forget abotu all the demoing and all that and jsut bite the bullet and order the damn stuff. honestly he should demo, its his responsibility as a specialist store he would be very lax if cant even be bothered to demo for you. and no its nto within his good will to demo it is actually what will gain him a sale. make it very clear to him that a sale is dependant on the demo. and he might take more seriosly. now I am not sayign all this to put you off paradigm or HK gear. I own the CC570 centre myself and a HK630 as you know and think very highly of both. But really you must have a listen if you can. why not ! it is the very least to demo in store. sure home demoing is the ideal but do agree not always possible in all cases.
Stets Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 MM steve at eastwood sells both paradigm and HK AVRs its bollocks he cant demo. I somehow get the feelign that he is jsut railroading you into forget abotu all the demoing and all that and jsut bite the bullet and order the damn stuff.honestly he should demo, its his responsibility as a specialist store he would be very lax if cant even be bothered to demo for you. and no its nto within his good will to demo it is actually what will gain him a sale. make it very clear to him that a sale is dependant on the demo. and he might take more seriosly. now I am not sayign all this to put you off paradigm or HK gear. I own the CC570 centre myself and a HK630 as you know and think very highly of both. But really you must have a listen if you can. why not ! it is the very least to demo in store. sure home demoing is the ideal but do agree not always possible in all cases. Unless I am mistaken I think the point is that MM has no intention of buying in Australia and that Steve at Eastwood would only be doing the demo out of "niceness" with no chance of actually getting the sale.
AndrewW Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 MM steve at eastwood sells both paradigm and HK AVRs its bollocks he cant demo. I somehow get the feelign that he is jsut railroading you into forget abotu all the demoing and all make it very clear to him that a sale is dependant on the demo. and he might take more seriosly. Al, MM lives in NZ, and was never planning on buying from Steve ... He wast just looking for a test drive. Andrew.
aztec Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 Auditioning is definitely worth the trouble, as long as you keep within your budget. Don't let the sales guy allow you to try something significantly more expensive or else you'll need to re-negotiate with the CFO.
Mining Man Posted April 19, 2007 Author Posted April 19, 2007 Probably need to clarify a few points... The discussions with Eastwood Hi Fi were about tying up at least an hour or 3 of their time and resources, to test drive all the speaker combos with the HK 635. A couple of things worked against this plan, including: Steve is away for a couple of weeks at that time; they are also a salesman short (check their site for the job advert); they won't be getting a sale at the end of it; and they don't have a 635 at the moment. For sure, I could have played dumb right from the start and just wandered in and demoed with the nearest to the 635 and the speaker options available. But not good karma in my books. I respect what Steve had to say. I didn't at all get the impression he wouldn't have helped under different circumstances. In terms of his advice, it was more along the lines of "The Paradigms are best suited to your needs of the group you have nominated" as opposed to "Buy the Paradigms without hesitation right now and leave me alone". I agree that I should really be demoing, so here's my options: The B&W combo is at the local HN dealer, and I wouldn't expect cooperation from them any more than say, a rodeo bull. The Paradigm dealer is a custom installer who doesn't have a showroom as such. And the KEFs are at the local Hi Fi store, where discounts wouldn't exactly be too generous. The KEFs have already been offered for home demo, and while this is an excellent proposition, I can't see the point when I can't have the others there to compare side by side. (My memory is probably as bad as my hearing...). The last option for me is to have a listen to the Paradigms at Challenge Hi Fi in Adelaide in a couple of weeks, which I probably will. I guess the thing that I'm getting at most, is that unless you can hear all the options, in the same room, with the same source / amp combo, then how can you make a realistic comparison? So what happens if the sound of the Paradigms at Challenge isn't what I like, yet it's the sonic signature of the AVR that I'm hearing? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying demoing is a waste of time. But I believe it to be a more exact science than perhaps the tyre kicking pseudo science that I am likely to employ.
betty boop Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 apologies mm didnt pick up you had made the move to NZ. I infact for soem reason thought maybe you had moved back to OZ. didnt pick up on the NZ connection. in regards the installer. maybe puch him to bring a pair of paradigms over yoru place. make clear to him you cant buy without hearing. he might come through. otherwise try find a paradigm dealer where you can take your HK AR around to for a listen.
Nolz Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 I've bought alot of gear from Eastwood Hifi/Steve and am sure that he would accomodate your needs as best he can given the option, but like you say he's a little tied up and it might not be practical for him to do so, I wouldn't doubt what he has to say simply because he and his staff have been very patient and accomodating with my needs and requests when demo-ing in the past. I wanted to chime in because I saw mention of B&W's as an option along with the paradigms. I have a pair of studio 20's (2ch) and a some Monitor 11's and a cc570 centre (HT). When I auditioned the Monitior 11's a I also asked to demo a pair of B&W's (603) so I could be sure of my purchase and simply because B&W's are so damn popular and highly regarded. The difference was drastic to say the least, and although the B&W's weren't bad they certainly were not for me. They were very polite and laid back....almost flat? It certainly seemed that way when switching between the speakers. I guess my point is that you should certainly demo the speakers! If you can't get your exact receiver hooked up to it then perhaps just shoot for one that is atleast the same make? This way you should atleast get a god feel for the brand that you are hoping to buy. As much as I am in love with the paradigms and am not a fan of the B&W's (of roughly the same price bracket, you may very well be the exact opposite!) I also have a wide variety of musical tastes and feel that the paradigms have done me alot of justice. This may or may not help but my collection consists of stuff like, INCUBUS, Linkin Park, Metallica, John Butler, Missy Higgins, Mozart, Diana Krall, Eric Clapton and compilations of classical, blues and Jazz! You can throw into that mix a fair bit of old school hip hop and R&B. When I demo'd the B&W's I only had one of my Incubus cd's with me, and for a lack of a better description I'd say that they took the edge off the tracks I listened to. It's as if they went and got the rock band all amped up and guitars blazing and turned them unplugged if you catch my drift ramble over.
Mining Man Posted April 19, 2007 Author Posted April 19, 2007 Thanks guys. I do really want to demo at least the Paradigms, if not the whole lot, and thus the reason for trying to hook something up with Eastwood. Because I am likely to continue to move around, I just don't want to end up with a speaker that has too much inherent character, be it bright or flat. Paradigms are repeatedly described as fitting this bill (of neutrality), so in some senses, I am loathe to ignore (or dilute) this advice with some poorly executed demos that don't really provide beneficial experience. For example: I have heard that Yamaha AVRs tend to add a signature on the bright side, in comparison with HK. If I were to team a Yamaha with a flatter speaker at store A (perhaps the B&Ws you mentioned), how do I compare this with say a Denon / Paradigm combo at store B? And that's without even going anywhere near the source. That is the crux of my challenge: to try and determine a level playing field so that all I am comparing is the bit I am going to buy. Not easy... So how did others meet this challenge?
Nolz Posted April 20, 2007 Posted April 20, 2007 I think you are trying to do the impossible. ie make the perfect one off purchase in one hit. I think a part of this hobby is buying and selling, trying, trialing and experiencing what's available within ones constraints. For me online reviews did play a big part in narrowing down the speakers but a quick listen was the clincher. Equipment and rooms were far from what I have at home however it was enough for me to know that they are my taste in speakers. I already have picked out what I want to audition next but that's not to say I'm unhappy with what I've bought. It sounds as if you are near a decision anywas but a quick listen should suffice for you know know whether or not to go for it or not. I wouldnt put too much into the finer details at this stage as the speakers character should still shine through no matter what receiver you choose (not that the receiver wouldn't make a difference). Me I just took the plunge, you live you learn you save and buy more speakers ...... amongst other things.
50mxe20 Posted April 20, 2007 Posted April 20, 2007 What happened to the Kef's you were going to buy MM?
marcusd1503561159 Posted April 20, 2007 Posted April 20, 2007 MM I use KEFs with HK AVRs for a lot of home theatres and they are a superb match. Check out following links- http://www.ecoustics.com/sv/1923 http://www.ecoustics.com/secrets/volume_13...006-part-1.html http://www.kef.com/reviews/ukreviews.asp
Mining Man Posted April 20, 2007 Author Posted April 20, 2007 What happened to the Kef's you were going to buy MM? KEFs still not ruled out of the equation. Haven't hit the local store up for firm pricing yet, but suspect they won't be quite as competitive as I'd like. The advantage with the KEFs however, is the opportunity to go the XQ1s (bookshelf) and move them to the back in a year or so. The XQ5s that would replace them are a $4k speaker, so I'd be setting myself up for some really fine gear. The guy I've been talking to at the local store has been really great, and in-home demo is a guaranteed option. I'd love to reward that service (and the specialist store) before all else. But damn if I can't help but love the idea of the Paradigms... (And to be honest, Uni-Q drivers scare me a little. Problem with a tweeter? Have to replace both. Same story for the woofer...)
Recommended Posts