betty boop Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 reading a HD-XA2 review on sound and vision came across thsi statement More noteworthy is that the HDMI jack on the HD-XA2 adheres to the new version 1.3 standard (see HDMI 1.3: The Missing Link), which allows it to pass Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream signals from movie discs to upcoming A/V receivers and outboard processors equipped to decode them. Both formats will be used increasingly by film studios because their "lossless" or "bit-for-bit" compression schemes ensure sound quality identical to that of the original PCM digital audio soundtracks, with no sacrifice in clarity or dynamics for the sake of saving disc space. Although 5.1-channel TrueHD decoding is already performed onboard in the XA2 for output through the HDMI connector (as PCM) or through the 5.1-channel analog outputs, an outboard decoder will be needed for DTS-HD Master Audio when it appears on discs or for decoding any future 7.1-channel soundtracks in either format, at least in the absence of possible firmware updates. Again, no other high-def disc player on the market except the PlayStation 3 currently offers HDMI 1.3. which had me grumbling a tad. for a couple of reasons. 1st where are discs with dTS-HD master whats the hold up ? 2nd only decoding upto 5.1 for true-hd onboard ? - and again the mention of "an outboard decoder will be needed for DTS-HD Master Audio when it appears on discs or for decoding any future 7.1-channel soundtracks in either format" yeesh why are they dragging their heels bring it on full on ! true-HD and dts-HD master in 7.1 we want it now. not only with the hard ware capability but on the software as well. and bring us some avr/pre-pros with 7.1 dolby true-HD and DTS-HD master decoding capability while we're at it please ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavstar1 Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Hi alebonau. The blu-ray discs i have seen in shops so far that contain the DTS-HD Master soundtrack are any 20th Century Fox releases. Columbia(Sony) releases seem to have mainly uncompressed PCM. I think this will eventually change once AVR's start to have the new encoders on-board. Most future discs I would assume will be released with either DTS-HD Master and/or Dolby Tru-HD / Dolby Digital Plus rather than uncompressed PCM. Uncompressed PCM seems to be a stop-gap solution until support for the other formats increases??? I would agree that the hardware support for the new formats has been sadly lacking - with new AVR models trickling out, it seems that still no native DTS-HD Master / Dolby Tru-HD encoding on any of the new affordable ($1500-$3000) AVR's. Given that Blu-ray / HD DVD has been released in the US for a while now, it is odd that the hardware support for the new audio formats is still very low (or non existent). It would be nice to think that the upcoming replacement for the higher-end recievers eg Yamaha Rx2800? would have these audio formats on board but from all reports, this is unlikely - disappointing if a new $2500+ AVR fails to include this... How long should you have to wait to eventually hear the decent audio? The new players really shouldn't be released without having support for either format already on board - having to pay $1000+ for a blu ray / HD-DVD player that doesn't decode the audio (or output picture correctly ie 1080p24) without first needing several firmware updates is a bit rich. Hopefully, we will start to see AVR's/player later in 2007/ early 2008 release with support for the new formats. I am looking forward to making the upgrade but want to ensure that for the substantial $$$ I am getting value for what i pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 most Fox BD titles have DTS HD Master. I read an interview with a Sony Pictures Rep and they are against DTS HD Master simply because there are no decoders on the market. Their preference is to move from PCM to Dolby TrueHD. And once again, there is zero point in an AVR which can decode Dolby TrueHD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacknbrindle Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 most Fox BD titles have DTS HD Master.I read an interview with a Sony Pictures Rep and they are against DTS HD Master simply because there are no decoders on the market. Their preference is to move from PCM to Dolby TrueHD. And once again, there is zero point in an AVR which can decode Dolby TrueHD. I just had a look at the DTS website and they have a page that goes into small detail on the formats available . They mention DTS-HD High Resolution as a format just below DTS-HD Master Audio and only capable of a max of 6.0 Mbps where as Master has 24.5Mbps This High resolution format has 7.1 channels and can be sent via LPCM if the player has the Chip where as they state all Master Audio decoding is done on external devices . Maybe certain Players like the PS3 and HD-XE1 etc may be able to do the High Resolution decoding on-board after firmware updates but will just past Master audio directly over HDMI in bitstream for that format ? Any thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydrology Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Maybe certain Players like the PS3 and HD-XE1 etc may be able to do the High Resolution decoding on-board after firmware updates but will just past Master audio directly over HDMI in bitstream for that format ? Any thoughts ? Its possible the PS3 can do MA but not the HIgh Resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Its possible the PS3 can do MA but not the HIgh Resolution. one day maybe somethign will be able to do MA. if fox blu-ray discs have DTS-HD master tracks what are people expected to decode on. the note above says deociding for MA(and trueHD) espcially past 5.1 is needed to be done in an external decoder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 one day maybe somethign will be able to do MA.if fox blu-ray discs have DTS-HD master tracks what are people expected to decode on. the note above says deociding for MA(and trueHD) espcially past 5.1 is needed to be done in an external decoder. The Dolby site itself says differently. I know which I would listen too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacknbrindle Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The Dolby site itself says differently. I know which I would listen too How i interpreted the site was that TrueHd was able to be decoded onboard dedicated players via converting to LPCM and also sent bitstream to a Reciever with onboard decoding , but DTS-HD MA had to be decoded externally ( Via a reciever etc with dedicated DTS-HD MA decoder) Although DTS-HD High Resolution which is a lower grade compared to Master Audio is able to be decoded onboard dedicated players like TrueHD and with full 7.1 channel lossless playback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 How i interpreted the site was that TrueHd was able to be decoded onboard dedicated players via converting to LPCM and also sent bitstream to a Reciever with onboard decoding , but DTS-HD MA had to be decoded externally ( Via a reciever etc with dedicated DTS-HD MA decoder) Although DTS-HD High Resolution which is a lower grade compared to Master Audio is able to be decoded onboard dedicated players like TrueHD and with full 7.1 channel lossless playback The problem is, studios want access to those stream in the player to do "on the fly" mixing of downloadable content and to do other enhanced options such as realtime editing (censorship), that means they need to be done in the player. Hence why Dolby says that for enhanced discs (read any disc with HDi or BDJ compatability which is all studio releases discs) that raw passthrough will not be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 The Dolby site itself says differently. I know which I would listen too well the dts website says differently too to what your saying as the officila dts-hd master demo disc I have. not sure who to belive myself think theres still a massive amount of confusion myself amongst manufacturers etc. maybe one day this whole mess will get sorted. so we can enjoy unbridled the full effect of these top end surround encodes. I jsut wish the day would come a bit quicker. at present nothing out there with dts-hd master decodign on board. why ? how long have these formats been around ? how long has dts-hd master surround format been around ? dolby true-hd when we going to get that in 7.1 ? mom you'll find no player able greater than dolby true-hd in 5.1 thats the limit for 7.1 you'd need to go external. you cant make a player do what its not capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 well the dts website says differently too to what your saying as the officila dts-hd master demo disc I have. not sure who to belive myself think theres still a massive amount of confusion myself amongst manufacturers etc.maybe one day this whole mess will get sorted. so we can enjoy unbridled the full effect of these top end surround encodes. I jsut wish the day would come a bit quicker. at present nothing out there with dts-hd master decodign on board. why ? how long have these formats been around ? how long has dts-hd master surround format been around ? dolby true-hd when we going to get that in 7.1 ? mom you'll find no player able greater than dolby true-hd in 5.1 thats the limit for 7.1 you'd need to go external. you cant make a player do what its not capable. Thats why I said "And once again, there is zero point in an AVR which can decode Dolby TrueHD." - no mention of DTS HD Master there And when 7.1 comes, well, we need new players , but that said, I believe the HDMI will deliver up to 8 channels from current machines so it's only if you are relying on analogue that you are in trouble. As Franin has said, and I have also experienced, the movie Crank outputs more channels than 5.1 discreet channels over the HDMI and it sounds glorious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Thats why I said "And once again, there is zero point in an AVR which can decode Dolby TrueHD." - no mention of DTS HD Master there And when 7.1 comes, well, we need new players , but that said, I believe the HDMI will deliver up to 8 channels from current machines so it's only if you are relying on analogue that you are in trouble. As Franin has said, and I have also experienced, the movie Crank outputs more channels than 5.1 discreet channels over the HDMI and it sounds glorious momaw if you have a look there is nothing out there suporting true-hd or dts-hd master over 5.1 what franin talked about was pcm. and also note there is nothing to say that it is infact a 7.1 track could just be ch9 or ch 7 that often broadcast what detects as DD5.1 when its jsut incorrectly flagged and infact jsut plain old DD2.0. it does happen by mistake. look forward to some clarity myself from manufacturers but not holding my breath. suspect we are goign to get a bit of a hotch potch of all sorts in the time to come, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kootaberra Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 reading a HD-XA2 review on sound and vision came across thsi statementwhich had me grumbling a tad. for a couple of reasons. 1st where are discs with dTS-HD master whats the hold up ? 2nd only decoding upto 5.1 for true-hd onboard ? - and again the mention of "an outboard decoder will be needed for DTS-HD Master Audio when it appears on discs or for decoding any future 7.1-channel soundtracks in either format" yeesh why are they dragging their heels bring it on full on ! true-HD and dts-HD master in 7.1 we want it now. not only with the hard ware capability but on the software as well. and bring us some avr/pre-pros with 7.1 dolby true-HD and DTS-HD master decoding capability while we're at it please ! patience, patience dear fellows. Only new mixed sound tracks should bring out the best of this new system. Current and older movies would have to re-mixed/mastered in most cases and I don't think they will jump at that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 patience, patience dear fellows. Only new mixed sound tracks should bring out the best of this new system. Current and older movies would have to re-mixed/mastered in most cases and I don't think they will jump at that idea. hehe I know gepm. jsut the technology is there and yet we are not using it. and I'm really itching for a taste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACCA350 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 well the dts website says differently too to what your saying as the officila dts-hd master demo disc I have. not sure who to belive myself think theres still a massive amount of confusion myself amongst manufacturers etc.maybe one day this whole mess will get sorted. so we can enjoy unbridled the full effect of these top end surround encodes. I jsut wish the day would come a bit quicker. at present nothing out there with dts-hd master decodign on board. why ? how long have these formats been around ? how long has dts-hd master surround format been around ? dolby true-hd when we going to get that in 7.1 ? mom you'll find no player able greater than dolby true-hd in 5.1 thats the limit for 7.1 you'd need to go external. you cant make a player do what its not capable. Maybe you should ask DTS to clarify under what conditions the player will output the raw DTS HDMA signal over HDMI 1.3. Because all the information from industry insiders at AVS say that this raw output issue is the same for all audio formats, it is simply the fact that the player may be required to mix tracks with these 'advanced content' discs and this can ONLY be done in the player so it has been made mandatory that the player not output any of the audio formats in their raw state for these discs(even the DD or DTS that comes over SPDIF is mixed and downmixed in the player before being output) There is talk about a possible 'bypass' setting in the player but this has not occurred and may never occur.As FRANIN has already posted there is 7.1 content on the market now: How this, crank show it's 6.1 pcm on the menu system.When playing it comes out 7.1. I pressed the select button and on the osd it shows 7.1.Like most amps it shows the left being what signal is coming out of the dvd player and the right shows show what your putting it out as.On my amp is showed the left as 7.1 and the right as 7.1 also.But my question is I thought there was no titles avaialble in 7.1.Does anyone else have crank on blu-ray? Great film, great audio, but I still cannot believe it. Dolby TrueHD on BD and HD-DVD can do 7.1(it can actually do 14channel but has been limited for these fomats). If you recall when the first players hit the market they could only output 2 of the TrueHD channels but with firmware updates they have enabled 5.1 decoding, so I don't think its a big stretch to expect a firmware update to enable 7.1 decoding(and since any version of HDMI can handle 8channel PCM I don't see a problem getting it to the receiver without HDMI 1.3) DTS HD MA on the other hand may need a hardware update in the form of a decoder chip, which newer players will eventually have, and still there will be no specific need for HDMI 1.3 since 'advanced content' discs won't allow the raw bitstream to be output. Anyway I'm still waiting for all this to pan out and prices to drop before I jump in cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Maybe you should ask DTS to clarify under what conditions the player will output the raw DTS HDMA signal over HDMI 1.3. Because all the information from industry insiders at AVS say that this raw output issue is the same for all audio formats, it is simply the fact that the player may be required to mix tracks with these 'advanced content' discs and this can ONLY be done in the player so it has been made mandatory that the player not output any of the audio formats in their raw state for these discs(even the DD or DTS that comes over SPDIF is mixed and downmixed in the player before being output) There is talk about a possible 'bypass' setting in the player but this has not occurred and may never occur.~ macca on the DTS-HD Master official demo disk from DTS for CES 2007 this is what DTS has stipulated To enjoy the full benefit of this disc, you must play this on a HD-DVD player in addition to a DTS-HD Master Audio capable A/V receiver or preamp. If you do not have a DTS-HD Master Audio capable A/V receiver ro preamp, audio will default to full 1.5Mbps DTS Encore, still providing you with twice the resolution of most standard definition DVDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACCA350 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 macca on the DTS-HD Master official demo disk from DTS for CES 2007 this is what DTS has stipulatedYes thats correct since the HD-DVD players don't have DTS HD MA decoders onboard and I'd wager that disc is not an 'advanced content' disc, and notice it says 'To enjoy the full benefit of this disc'. That disclaimer is only in reference to that particular disc.cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Yes thats correct since the HD-DVD players don't have DTS HD MA decoders onboard and I'd wager that disc is not an 'advanced content' disc, and notice it says 'To enjoy the full benefit of this disc'. That disclaimer is only in reference to that particular disc.cheers it could be argued the other way and you know it. we might be facing a situation that for dts-HD master we will have to use an external decoder. the fact we have a demo DTS-HD master demo disc that requires it means quite likely any discs with the surround coding to follow might need it too. tiem will tell. what I do know is yet there is no source player or any I know off in the pipeline with dts-HD master surround decoder on board. you have to ask why ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Well, not a single one of my BD discs with DTS HD Master comes with any instructions on "how to enjoy" the format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Well, not a single one of my BD discs with DTS HD Master comes with any instructions on "how to enjoy" the format. exactly momaw and unfortunately thats my point we've got the technology but cant enjoy it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACCA350 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 exactly momaw and unfortunately thats my point we've got the technology but cant enjoy it ! Why is everyone making such a big deal about DTS HD MA? There are two other lossless formats already in use, Dolby TrueHD and LPCM, they are all lossless formats 'bit-for-bit identical to the masters'. So why the big Hoohaaa over DTS HD MA and why would this be handled any different to the other formats by the player? In fact DTS HD MA has less features than Dolby TrueHD which is an extension of the established MLP(DVD-A) and also includes metadata. This is becoming another DD vs DTS debacle, except now they are both(actually, all three if you include LPCM) LOSSLESS and when decoded will be identical, and if they're not then they've used different masters in which case its not a format discrepancy but a mastering one. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Personally I don't give a rats left nut over DTS HD Master (I have always thought DTS was overrated and the only DTS tracks that did sound better was due to a different master being used i.e Akira). Unfortunately Fox are using it as the only lossless track on their titles so unless you can decode it you are stuck with regular DTS at best. I would prefer DD THD but fox don't use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gino Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Personally I don't give a rats left nut.... How about the right one? I agree with macca350, does it matter what format it is so long as it is lossless? Just give us 7 discrete channels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skid_MacMarx Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I thought it was promoted that PS3 would have DTS HD Master momaw or is this yet another firmware upgrade away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momaw Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I thought it was promoted that PS3 would have DTS HD Master momawor is this yet another firmware upgrade away was supposed to be in the last firmware, never materialised and now there is a question over whether the hardware actually supports the capability to go beyond the core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts