100hz Lcd Tv's?were Are They

[george#3]

i see over in the uk and in the usa they have the sharp lcd 100hz lcd tv's,which helps with motion.

but as normal we down under have nothing of the sort,i see the sharp 37" is also full 1080p,not this would make a diif in such a small display!

we have the bottom of the range model here for top price though! 50/60hz model.

i see toshiba will be realeseing the 100hz model in aprilso,will we be getting this model here or will we miss out ,again!

i also see fujitsu will realese a lcd tv,37" 1080p 120hz,i believe big $$$$$ about 3times the going price.of other lcd tv's.

[george#3]

so i take it nobody now's anything here?

about 100hz lcd tv's!

maybe to far advanced yet for the aussie market

[Owen]

so i take it nobody now's anything here?

about 100hz lcd tv's!

maybe to far advanced yet for the aussie market

Why do you want a 100Hz LCD? LCD’s don’t suffer from flicker.

[AndrewWilliams]

I'm surprised you haven't read the reports on 100/120Hz LCDs Owen. There's a lot more to it than I think you're aware of. But you're right - it's got nothing to do with flicker.

[pgdownload]

Hmm, All PC monitors have a 'natural resolution' ('bout 75Hz) that they display best in. I seem to remember that there was no reason for higher Hz as it had no effect. TV is broadcast at 30 odd frames a second and 60 Hz ends up refreshing the same image twice. As mentioned LCDs don't suffer from 'flicker' so 100Hz would only serve to paint the exact same image 3 times in a row. Sounds like someone invented the tech and someone else said "Well it sounds better than 60 Hz lets sell it for more $"

Regards

Peter Gillespie

PS That is to say, I think you're confusing FPS with Hz

[AndrewWilliams]

See my post above...

It's got nothing to do with FPS or flicker.

[pgdownload]

See my post above...It's got nothing to do with FPS or flicker.

A single line refering us to another single line that says the same as the first single line? It is about FPS, in so much as I suspect the original poster felt 100Hz = 100 FPS and 'fast moving objects' (aka gaming) would look better. In reality 30 FPS is all you get watching TV. On a CRT 100Hz still has validity but on a LCD this is not the case.

Regards

[Owen]

I'm surprised you haven't read the reports on 100/120Hz LCDs Owen. There's a lot more to it than I think you're aware of. But you're right - it's got nothing to do with flicker.

I know full well what you are talking about mate, I was still curious if beardse had a reason.

I am curious what is going on with the 100-120Hz LCD’s though. Maybe they are forcing the pixel to black between frames in the same way as a movie projector double shutters film frames to 48Hz to reduce flicker, but that would mean 100-120Hz LCD’s would then have flicker where the 50/60Hz models do not. Obviously there is some benefit or they would not bother, however LCD displays seem to be the only ones that need this sort of trickery. A CRT display does not have better motion at 100Hz then at 50Hz.

Motion interpolation could be used in conjunction with 100/120Hz, but since 3 out of 4 frames would be interpolated, it would likely introduce as many problems as it solves.

[eddieaus]

Upcoming LCDs that will support 100Hz:

Sony S3000/D3000

Panasonic LX70A/700A

Toshiba WL68/WLT68

[Steve C]

Hmm, All PC monitors have a 'natural resolution' ('bout 75Hz) that they display best in. I seem to remember that there was no reason for higher Hz as it had no effect. TV is broadcast at 30 odd frames a second and 60 Hz ends up refreshing the same image twice. As mentioned LCDs don't suffer from 'flicker' so 100Hz would only serve to paint the exact same image 3 times in a row. Sounds like someone invented the tech and someone else said "Well it sounds better than 60 Hz lets sell it for more $"

Regards

Peter Gillespie

PS That is to say, I think you're confusing FPS with Hz

It might pay to quote PAL figures rather than NTSC ones, given we are in Australia.

It's a dead give away as to exactly where the information comes from when you see Aussies quoting as gospel that 30Hz or fps and 60Hz or fps is the Aussie video broadcast standard - unless of course you are from Melbourne in the U.S.

[george#3]

Why do you want a 100Hz LCD? LCD’s don’t suffer from flicker.

who said anything about flicker?

it's about motion(blur issue)

plus higher res at 1080p not 720p

[nis200979]

who said anything about flicker?

it's about motion(blur issue)

plus higher res at 1080p not 720p

Doesn't the Philips 3ms 42" LCD have this in Oz????

They described it as phasing the backlight I believe. If you turn the backlight off between frames you minimise the visual appearence of bluring.

Anything that helps is a good thing. Maybe Panasonic has the right idea in regards to LCD response times; limit LCD to 32"????? Hmmmm

[Owen]

who said anything about flicker?

it's about motion(blur issue)

plus higher res at 1080p not 720p

What has 1080p v 720p got to do with 100Hz or motion blur.

LCD's are generally the only displays that suffer significant motion blur, but I thought you may have had some other reason that you did not explain.

[pgdownload]

What has 1080p v 720p got to do with 100Hz or motion blur.

Two separate issues here Owen (from the original post)

1) 100Hz LCDs (that 'might' help Motion Blur)

2) 1080p technology on small screens (noted for not being of much actual use, but presumably an example of how we're 'missing out')

Both supposed technologies that we don't get down under (as per original post). I've ruminated that for a agreed 'non-flickering' device that showing the same image 3 times in a row is no better than doing it two times in a row. As such 100Hz LCDs seem to be a good example of "watching a HD TV from 10 meters away" syndrome )

It might pay to quote PAL figures rather than NTSC ones, given we are in Australia.

Sorry, my posts tend to be indicative only when trying to make a general point. No idea what the US figures are. I realise in some discussions the 2nd decimal place is important, but probably not this one?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[AndrewWilliams]

Yes, 100Hz LCDs seem totally pointless to me but everybody who saw them at CES in the US said that they were the first LCDs they'd seen that look as good or better than plasma for watching sports.

The current LCDs handle 24fps films easily without any blur that I can see so it's really only 50/60fps things like sport that would benefit.

[MLXXX]

Sorry, my posts tend to be indicative only when trying to make a general point. No idea what the US figures are. I realise in some discussions the 2nd decimal place is important, but probably not this one?

... TV is broadcast at 30 odd frames a second and 60 Hz ends up

refreshing the same image twice.

In Australia, we have the PAL standard, not the NTSC standard used in the USA and Japan.

Our analogue TV broadasts are at 25fps interlaced not at the 30 odd (29.97) fps of the NTSC standard.

Our standard definition digital TV brodcasts use the same vertical rate as analogue, i.e. 25 interlaced frames per second, often written 50i (which is actually the field rate).

Our high definition digital TV broadcasts are either at 50 progressive (e.g. ABC HD 1280x720), or "50" interlaced (e.g. Ch 9 HD 1920x1080).

Our mains electricity is at 50Hz. USA mains electricity is at 60Hz.

[pgdownload]

Our mains electricity is at 50Hz. USA mains electricity is at 60Hz.

If I ever move to America I'll be well set Steve suggested quoting PAL figures might 'help' the discussion. I'd counter that dragging America into the conversation is somewhat less than helpful in itself. It might in fact help to look at the questions being asked and the points actually being made.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[MLXXX]

The first hit of a google search on 100Hz LCD I did a minute ago was this useful article. It explains some theoretical advantages of a particular 100Hz LCD technology and includes diagrams and pictures.

I have not attempted to search for retail availability of this technology in Oz, which appears to have been the OP's query, combined with a gripe about cost.

[pgdownload]

The first hit of a google search on 100Hz LCD I did a minute ago was this useful article. It explains some theoretical advantages of a particular 100Hz LCD technology and includes diagrams and pictures

Neat article,

Pretty much confirms what I was suggesting. Leaving aside a couple of marketing images that they suggest not taking too seriously ('the one on the lefts a bit blurry' the 'one on the rights not' = Yah 100Hz really works )

The article suggests its a great technology for PCs etc. because these boxes are are actually outputing 100 FPS. So a TV that can actually display 100 FPS (ie Hz) is going to be benefitial. For 'slower sources' like DVDs and TVs (25 Hz) the 'trick' is to have the TV calculate interpolated extra frames to bring the count up. The verdict:

We realise here that we are actually used to seeing a slightly blurred effect in fast camera movements. We all agreed that we wouldn’t activate the 100 Hz in movies.

So to the original OP I'd suggest that its probably a good thing that there's a bit of time for the 'gimicks' to be sorted from the 'features' before the sets hit our stores.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[AndrewWilliams]

Yes, as some of us suspected, it involves inserting blank frames in order to prevent retinal persistence. Sounds like a good idea if it works as well as people say it does. It should be very good for PC gaming monitors (assuming it doesn't add even more lag to the display!) I didn't realise that some plasmas already use this technique.

[bugless]

ARE YOU SURE 100 Hz is the same as or equivalent to 100 FPS ????

[nis200979]

ARE YOU SURE 100 Hz is the same as or equivalent to 100 FPS ????

NO

Hz is the rate of refresh.

FPS is how many unique frames are displayed per second. PAL is displayed as 25fps.

576p and 576i are still 25fps, one as 50i, one as 25p.

On a standard CRT this is displayed by displaying frame 1 field 1, frame 1 field 2, frame 2, field 1, ... frame 25 field2.

All flat panels are progressive scan inherently, so internally they convert any interlaced format into progressive, and display it as 25fps.

ie: frame 1, frame 2, ... frame 25

[pgdownload]

ARE YOU SURE 100 Hz is the same as or equivalent to 100 FPS ????

In the context of this discussion yes. Two concepts:

1) The number of discrete images sent to the TV (FPS)

2) The number of times the TV refreshes the screen (Hz)

Not much point sending 10,000 FPS to a screen that only updates the image 50 times a second. Similarly sending 50 FPS to a screen that's refreshed 10,000 a second is also not utilising the screens refresh capability very effectively.

PCs/Video cards are currently quite capable of sending 100 discrete images in a second to a screen refreshing 100 times a second - perfect utilisation.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[Owen]

NO

Hz is the rate of refresh.

FPS is how many unique frames are displayed per second. PAL is displayed as 25fps.

576p and 576i are still 25fps, one as 50i, one as 25p.

On a standard CRT this is displayed by displaying frame 1 field 1, frame 1 field 2, frame 2, field 1, ... frame 25 field2.

All flat panels are progressive scan inherently, so internally they convert any interlaced format into progressive, and display it as 25fps.

ie: frame 1, frame 2, ... frame 25

This needs clarification.

Progressive sources like film are 25fps on PAL TV but true interlaced source from a interlaced video camera is intended to be displayed at 50fps.

The same applies to 1080i, progressive source is 25fps and interlaced source is 50 frames per second.

Interlaced source is not meant to have fields weaved into progressive frames as is done with progressive sourced 1080i. Adjoining frames can be used to reconstruct full frames but each field should be treated as a frame and displayed at field rate (50fps).

[george#3]

this is no suprise to me,as i had read in a magazine over a year ago about clearing motion blur by upping the voltage into the lcd tv.

this is a brief coloum out of the what video & widescreen tv.

the trouble with lcd is that it's sluggish in responding to a change in electrical drive,so that successive frames"intergrate" on screen-hence the motion smearing.

it's reduced by applying higher drive voltages to the lcd cells to accelerate the twisting motion of the crystal molecules.this dosen't impact on reliability or life expectancy.