Shop Testing Plasmas...advice?

[sanitarium]

ok guys,

After reading a heap of info on these forums and doing some research, i've decided to bite the bullet and actually start looking at panels with the intention of buying one reasonably soon. Whilst the info here has been great i'm still unsure on a couple of points so would appreciate your feedback

I currently own an old Sony XA43M31 rear pro 108cm (diagonal) TV so am looking to step up into a 50" screen size, which i think should be nice with our viewing distance of 2.8-3.0m. I've narrowed my choices down to 4 panels but am also open to suggestions for others. The list is as follows:

1. Hitachi 50PD960DTA

2. Panasonic TH50PX600A

3. Pioneer PDP507XDA

4. Samsung PS50Q7HDX

I am leaning towards either the Hitachi or the Panasonic because for me the Pio is a little expensive and the Samsung seems to have some issues from what i've read. Please throw some other suggestions at me if i've missed some other panels, but my questions are as follows:

1. testing these instore seems difficult because of the setups and shitty lighting. I was thinking of taking in some DVD's to see which one has the best PQ, with my list being something along the lines of: Matrix (lobby scene), Finding Nemo/Monsters Inc, LOTR and Star Wars Ep III.

Is this a good idea and can you recommend any other media/titles to test the panels with? I know i will not get the best PQ but hopefully this will give me a good idea, which leads me to my next question

2. is there some sort of standard setting that i could use when testing multiple panels as a reference so that i get the truest representation? i was thinking along the lines of setting everything to 50 ( or whatever the default is) on all panels as i have read that some stores adjust colour levels etc. on certain screens to display them in a more favourable light.

3. some of these have tuners inbuilt, can you advise if this is ok or, alternatively, recommend a good PVR? Should i be looking for TV's without inbuilt tuners and going for a decent PVR? i am a bit wary after reading here about the mess LG made with their inbuilt ones

Thanks in advance guys, i have searched and spent time reading through these forums but it can be a bit overwhelming, expecially for a total novice like myself.

The only other thing i feel is important to mention is that the room does have a fair bit of ambient light in it. i know that plasmas are not the best for this but i can darken the room by adding curtain backing and blinds, which IMO would be cheap.

[Herbernator]

Hi sanitarium

I was in exactly the same boat as you about 2 months ago.

Now I aplologise in advance that this is a little biased. I've just got the Panasonic 50" 600a and am really happy with it.

Here are a few experiences.

I went around to different stores and the picture on all the plasmas looked really bad to me. (not as good as they can be)

-The store lighting is nowhere near what I have at home. Therefore, it is impossible to accurately test a dvd or tv.

-ALL of the plasmas are set at a ridiculously high picture setting

-I've realised that most (not all) of your discounters JB, retravision, etc.etc. only want to sell you the thing. They don't want to spend time with you (which is ok when you're getting a good price)

-It is difficult to bring in a favourite DVD and test. For starters, they will use a different DVD player, different leads.

-I was comparing the Pioneer and the Panasonic 600a 50 inchers and they were never in close proximity to each other.

(would have been nice to see side by side... not one store that I went to had that set up)

I got the Panasonic for the following reasons.

-GREAT picture with Standard Def, High Def, Standard DVD, and now upscaled DVD.

-Built in set top box.... one less remote to have.

-Good looks, granted not as good as a Pioneer but it looks good.

-Good reviews in Home theatre Magazines

-Really good reviews on this site.

-and of course price.

Now about the Set top box/pvr question.

As I see it, the HD PVR's available now are a little bit expensive, save for the cheapie chinese ones that will work about a week. (not for me...I would like a brand name. I'm all for something being cheap but there is also 'too cheap')

I decided to go with the internal digital tuner as 1) it is one less remote and 2) Other NON-technophile people can use it. (just like a TV).

I have looked at the models you are looking at and really, they are all pretty good. You will not be dissapointed with any of your choices.

Could I suggest you try some other sites to look for reviews.

http://www.ecoustics.com/

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/

I hope I have been of some help.

Herbernator.

[Scalpel]

ok guys,

After reading a heap of info on these forums and doing some research, i've decided to bite the bullet and actually start looking at panels with the intention of buying one reasonably soon. Whilst the info here has been great i'm still unsure on a couple of points so would appreciate your feedback

It would be great if you updated your profile with your location as members may know of places you could view well set up screens to look at and test yourself (which is by far the best way).

J.

[diesel]

The Hitachi I'm not too familiar with, so I'll stick with my experience with Panasonic and Pioneer. The Pio is a bit more expensive but does accept 1080p input, though the inbuilt tuner in the Panny is quicker changing channels and a cinch to setup favourites.

All panels will look good with computer generated movies (Nemo etc) so I wouldn't test based on this type of movie.

Best way to test them is to change them off "Dynamic" setting and onto say "normal", but as Herbernator said, the store lighting will be very different to your loungeroom.

My neighbour's TV room has windows all along the back and one side, and he can't watch it during the daytime without at least closing the curtains behind them. I think they would have been better off with an LCD IMO.

If you're looking for a cheap HD PVR, take a look at the LG. prices of $499 are being quoted on this forum...new model must be coming

[sanitarium]

It would be great if you updated your profile with your location as members may know of places you could view well set up screens to look at and test yourself (which is by far the best way).

J.

err sorry bout that!!

located over here in wait awhile (w.a)

[dB10]

iRobot is also a good reference title, use beginning scene to compare skin tone and wall paint colors, the scene where Will Smith's car was being jumped by the Robots

Jurassic park III opening scene, check the parachute lines as it crosses the mountain/sea background for flickering (hitachi rarely passes this scene) and the scene where they first meet the t rex and other bigger dino for the skin tones and blood color.

have the sets on side by side if possible and ask if you could use the same dvd and cable you have at home, otherwise just use the best one they have and run them parallel

happy hunting

[madmax]

Easy, write down the settings for each tv that people have posted in this forum, go to the shop, ask for the remotes and set the tvs up accordingly. You may need to tweak a little to taste. Then see which one looks better to you. It's near impossible to judge sound quality at the shop, so you'll just have to take the word of people in this forum for that aspect. Anyway I went through all this and chose the Panasonic, for two reasons: sharpest picture from the tuner and great sound quality (the word of the forum didn't let me down here). I was a little concerned about the reflective glass that everyone keeps talking about, but to my surprise when I set it up it was far less reflective than my 68cm CRT, so IMHO it's not an issue. And yes, I recommend getting an inbuilt tuner, regardless of whether or not you intend to get a PVR.

$0.02

[edit] Oh, I forgot to mention the two negatives of the Panasonic: the two-tone look (subjective) and the 2 or sometimes 3 button presses required to change inputs. If you can live with that, the Panasonic is hard to beat.......

[Anton-P.]

As a few people have said, your choice lies mainly between the Pana and the Hitachi. These two are radically different in screen pixels (768 vs 1080 ALiS) so you should compare at their highest levels with HD materials. DVD being SD won't show their potential quality.

Ask if the store has a spare pvr with some HD recordings for testing.

[jakieblak]

I have the Samsung and have not had any problems with it, Samsung give you 2 years warranty standard.

Hitachi and Panasonic have 1 year i believe, as well as Samsung is made in korea vs others made in china.

I chose the Samsung because to me the picture is better, i find the Pana a bit soft and have heard lots of

stories about broken Hitachi's.

The only issue was the older Samsung did not have audio out via digital, the current ones have optical out

for all channels.

[complectus]

I'm about to make the same decision as the original poster. There was a thread about a week ago about the Hitachi 50PD960DTA in which I basically blasted it. After I wrote that message I emailed Hitachi expressing my disappointment with that set's picture quality & they wrote back with a list of retailers in my area with it on display, urging me to have another look. After seeing it in 3 more places, with 50" Panasonics next to it or very nearby, it's back on my list. Like the 42", it seems to have better fine detail in HD sources, but perhaps not so good blacks. They're both very good TVs & choosing between them is maybe like picking a winner from a fine pen & ink drawing (Hitachi) & a subtly shaded charcoal sketch (Panasonic)... a matter of taste, in other words.

Another moral to the story - sometimes, you CAN'T trust your own eyes (especially if you're not allowed to fiddle with the remote controls).

[sanitarium]

wow that was quick and very detailed, kind of what i was hoping/expecting...glad to see my impression of the forum didn't disappoint.

thanks so far for the knowledge and opinions, i guess it has confirmed for me that i am on the right track which is a relief and at the same time VERY EXCITING as i will have a sexy plasma sooner than i thought (even the boss is getting excited!! )

anton-P i think you hit the nail on the head these are my 2 main choices at the moment for a number of reasons such as build quality, reliability and aesthetics. originally i though that i would go for the Hitachi because of the resolution but the more i read here the more i realise that my preferences were not based on any research, rather the impresssion that more (in this case resolution) is better.

madmax this did cross my mind, i am thinking for this kind of testing that i will visit a more specialised store, we have west coast hi-fi here that do high end home entertainment and i was thinking that they would be a little more patient and willing for me to do this. i remember seeing a thread here on settings i think for the 42" panny with settings by Persian Immortal, will these also work for the 50"? button pressing and the like will not phase me too much as this is my first such screen so the excitement factor will far outwiegh this kind of stuff, i'll wait a little before i get too pedantic

seems the rumours are true that panasonic owners tuck their sets in at night with a blanket and pick fresh flowers for them every day as an offering to the gods of plasma awesomeness, having not yet seen the 50" Hitachi i can see why as i've looked at a couple of the pannys and they are lovely.

herbenator thanks for the links i will get reading them and i also agree this screen has a number of really good features for the price, but a couple more questions for you. with the inbuilt tuner it is a digital one correct? if i wanted to record FTA i would need an STB right? and if i wanted to watch one whilst recording another then i need twin tuners, so effectively a STB so that i have 2 tuners? what would you recommend?

[sanitarium]

I have the Samsung and have not had any problems with it, Samsung give you 2 years warranty standard.

Hitachi and Panasonic have 1 year i believe, as well as Samsung is made in korea vs others made in china.

I chose the Samsung because to me the picture is better, i find the Pana a bit soft and have heard lots of

stories about broken Hitachi's.

The only issue was the older Samsung did not have audio out via digital, the current ones have optical out

for all channels.

i did look at the 50" sammy and the picture did seem more "vibrant" for want of a better word but is this the individual setting on the panel or is it a characteristic of them altogether? could i not get comparable results with the other screens by mucking around with the PQ?

am i right in saying that the "X" models have the audio out? what are the benefits of this? (sorry complete n00b in regards to this!)

[sanitarium]

... expressing my disappointment with that set's picture quality...

Another moral to the story - sometimes, you CAN'T trust your own eyes (especially if you're not allowed to fiddle with the remote controls).

complectus, can you be more specific about what it was that you were initially disappointed with?

at the moment, because i am totally new to all of this, trusting my eyes becomes irrelevant at a certain point because they are not trained in what to look for and what to ignore or know how to rectify. ATM its all gut feelings and i haven't been disappointed yet.

Would it be worth my while to take someone who knows plasma screens with me to have their opinion too? i realise that they will not be watching it but maybe they can point out annoying things that may start to bug me a few months down the track?

[complectus]

complectus, can you be more specific about what it was that you were initially disappointed with?

at the moment, because i am totally new to all of this, trusting my eyes becomes irrelevant at a certain point because they are not trained in what to look for and what to ignore or know how to rectify. ATM its all gut feelings and i haven't been disappointed yet.

Would it be worth my while to take someone who knows plasma screens with me to have their opinion too? i realise that they will not be watching it but maybe they can point out annoying things that may start to bug me a few months down the track?

What may be most worthwhile doing is asking the salesperson if you can adjust the picture...

With respect to my disappointment...

From this thread - http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...p;hl=50pd960dta

pr 2 2007, 05:27 AM

Post #9

DTV Forums Member

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QUOTE(Struggo @ Apr 2 2007, 01:43 AM) *

Becuase sheep will follow sheep.

The Hitachi 42PD8800TA & 42PD8900TA are better displays than the Pana PV60 which they where often compared to. Don't get me wrong, the Pana's are great but compared to the two mentioned above, there not in the same ball park IMHO wub.gif

Back to the 50PD960DTA... I was very close to buying this last week, but after seeing it next to a Panasonic 50PX600A, I just couldn't do it. I too saw a big difference between the best 42" Hitachi (42PD960DTA) & the Panasonic & Pioneer 42"ers - it looked much better - but the difference just wasn't there for the 50". The improvement in sharpness & detail that was so apparent on the 42PD960DTA was replaced by a very unnatural-looking edge enhancement & loss of fine detail in lower-contrast areas. It was like someone had drawn white lines around high-contrast edges of the picture & smudged out the low contrast regions. Compared to the panasonic, it's black levels & general contrast were noticeably worse & skin tones looked a bit orange. It looked a bit washed out & I think i might have seen some luminance bounce rather than a smooth transition when overall brightness levels changed. This was watching Totally Wild in 1080i on SC10HD on Friday afternoon. Of course, many of these faults may have been due to the way it was set up, but seeing these defects reminded me of the difference between the top-line hitachi 42"er & the $2000 one that had similar specs but a much worse picture than the 42PD960DTA.

Lots of reviews of Hitachi TVs that I've read over the last year mention Hitachi's image processing - various generations of "Picture Master", now up to (I think) Picture Master FHD, or Picture Master 4 HD on overseas TVs - and whenever this technology is mentioned, it is praised. I downloaded the 50PD960DTA manual & there is no mention of any version of Picture Master at all. Also, unlike the 42PD960DTA, the 50" can't do PiP or PbP... although this is a fairly minor feature, it seems to me that this kind of picture manipulation should be very easy for even a simple image processor & given that the button for this feature exists on the remote but does nothing, i can only guess that the image processor cannot manage it. Or very much else, it seems, given the picture quality I saw...

I left the shop disappointed & with the distinct impression that despite Hitachi's naming conventions which would indicate that it's a top-of-the-line TV (XXPD960DTA), the 50" was really just a bigger-screened version of their cheapest plasmas. Even if you discount the defects i saw as setup problems, if this is a top line set like the 42PD960DTA, where is the 6-speaker sound system? & the USB ports & card reader? Optical audio-out? & despite earlier posts in this thread, I don't really like the look of it either - compared to the 42PD960DTA, it's just "ok".

Anyway... I would love it if someone could convince me that I'm wrong - that all the faults were just due to bad setup. 30% more pixels than the rest of the affordable 50"ers would probably make a significantly better picture given similar video processing. But do it quick because if you don't, i think i'm gonna get the panasonic...

[complectus]

Much of the criticisms I made of the 50PD960DTA in the other thread, other than picture quality, are still valid. I asked in my "disappointment" email about Picture Master image processing & the question was ignored in their reply. I replied to that email asking for clarification on the Picture Master version & did not receive a response. The missing features compared to the namesake 42" version are disappointing. Also there is no audio optical-out, which another member (alanh) in another thread suggested might cause lipsynch problems if you're connecting HDMI devices to both the TV & a receiver.

[sanitarium]

I asked in my "disappointment" email about Picture Master image processing & the question was ignored in their reply. I replied to that email asking for clarification on the Picture Master version & did not receive a response.

i wonder if this is because of the different resolution 1280 x 1080? originally i thought it was becasue this one is an ALIS panel but i think the 42" is too right?

[sanitarium]

just a couple more things b4 i go to dream of new TV's!!

when i am testing the panels, what should they be connected via? from what i've read there is only ~5% difference between HDMI and component cabling, so i guess this means that either will be fine? will it matter a great deal what DVD player they are using to play my sample scenes? i assume that the only way to test FTA HD is to watch it live or have them playback a recording, do you think this is important to include in the viewing tests? seems kinda rhetorical since i am after a quality panel and would like the option to view HD content....

the plan for tomorrow is to visit a few stores and test these out and also to gain an idea of pricing. i shall keep all informed, thanks again for the help!!

[complectus]

i wonder if this is because of the different resolution 1280 x 1080? originally i thought it was becasue this one is an ALIS panel but i think the 42" is too right?

Yes, but the documentation for the 42PD960DTA doesn't mention Picture Master either. The only plasma TV on Hitachi's Australian website that I can see that definitely includes Picture Master is the aging 55" one. This is odd, because the 50" 1280x1080 ALiS TVs in both Europe & America include different versions of Picture Master (FHD in Europe & 4 HD in America, from memory). And I'm almost positive that some version or another is included in 42" plasmas as well as all or most of Hitachi's LCDs in every other market...

Maybe it really is there, but for some reason they either don't want to or can't use the name in this country...

[complectus]

just a couple more things b4 i go to dream of new TV's!!

when i am testing the panels, what should they be connected via? from what i've read there is only ~5% difference between HDMI and component cabling, so i guess this means that either will be fine? will it matter a great deal what DVD player they are using to play my sample scenes? i assume that the only way to test FTA HD is to watch it live or have them playback a recording, do you think this is important to include in the viewing tests? seems kinda rhetorical since i am after a quality panel and would like the option to view HD content....

the plan for tomorrow is to visit a few stores and test these out and also to gain an idea of pricing. i shall keep all informed, thanks again for the help!!

Here in Newcastle, almost every TV at every retailer shows SC10HD. It's all 1080i with no ads - it goes back to the test loop during ad breaks in HD programs. Also, there's not alot of HD programs broadcast on 10 during business hours so it's the test loop nearly the whole day. If you can watch FTA HD, you still might need to be careful. NBN, our local 9 affiliate, broadcasts 1080i all day long, upscaling anything that's not available in HD. These upscaled programs look no better in 1080i than they do at 576i so you wouldn't want to make a decision based on how that kind of program looks. So far my investigations have been what you might call "reconnaisance missions" - gathering information for a purchase that i will make in the (now) near future. As such, I have been content to just watch what the store has been showing (which in my case has been a high quality source anyway, so I have nothing to complain about in that respect). Before I am willing to actually hand over maybe $4000 cash, I'd like to see how the TV handles SD sources, particularly DVD, & I have no idea how such a request will be received. I imagine that the busier, bigger retailers might be less willing to oblige, but then what do I do? If a small retailer will let me test a DVD & JBHiFi won't, would i be willing to pay the $500 extra for the privelege? Ideally, I would like to test a TV with the dvd player I will be using at home, playing a DVD i am familiar with & also with a HD-DVD or BluRay disc since I will likely be connecting one of these well before the TV is due to be replaced. Somehow I doubt all my wishes will be fulfilled...

I think this is probably the biggest advantage that the Panasonic has over the Hitachi. If I had made up my mind for the Panasonic, I wouldn't really care if the retailer wouldn't let me watch my favourite DVD on it. The panasonic 50PX600 is sold all over the world with little variation between different markets & there are literally hundreds of reviews & hundreds of thousands of opinions of it, mostly very good, all over the internet. Its very difficult to ignore this huge mountain of praise when trying to decide, & honestly it would probably be unwise to disregard it altogether. This Hitachi, however, seems exclusive to Australia & the number of reviews is much smaller & worse, the 4 reviews I have seen so far have been inconsistent, being equally divided between "average-ish" & "very good", Cnet.com.au & good gear guide being the lower 2 & the gadget guy & News Limited's Connect liftout rating it higher. It was very easy to write it off, as I nearly did, after seeing one single set poorly set up. Given that you can't even necessarily "trust your eyes", the safe option would be to trust the opinion-mountain. It would certainly be quicker than tracking down 3 other retailers in the hope that one of them has a well set up TV... However, now that I have seen a good one, it has gone back to the top of my list & it's very likely to be the one I buy in 2 weeks time. Unless the new Samsungs are really nice... LOL. (Indeed, how does anybody buy any expensive TV? There's always a better one coming out, cheaper, next month...)

On a slightly different note, these are the prices for the 50PD960DTA I was quoted on Thursday after just a quick chat & a "what's your best price if i buy it today?" no-hard-haggling question. Standard 1 yr warranty. Cash or card, not finance...

Belmont RetraVision & Joyce Mayne Wallsend both $3990

Harvey Norman Bennett's Green $3650

JBHiFi Kotara $3490

[sanitarium]

ok so i trekked all over town today and looked at both the Hitachi and the Panny in a number of different stores.

Even got the chance to see them side by side at Harvery Norman.

For the Panasonic i used these settings which were posted in this thread: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=43230

They were as follows:

DVI->HDMI (HD STB)

Mode: Standard

Contrast: 78 (63 * .78 = 49.14 = 49 increments on the PX600)

Brightness: 29 (63 * .29 = 18.27 = 18 increments on the PX600)

Color: 37 (63 * .37 = 23.31 = 23 increments on the PX600)

Sharpness: 20 (6 * .20 = 1.2 = 1 increment on the PX600)

Color Temp: Standard

Color Management: Off

MPEG NR: Off

Color Matrix: HD

Ch Color Set: Middle

Then i tried to tune the Hitachi to match these although this was difficult as the Hitachi's gradients are different.

I ended up getting them pretty close and must say that they both looked really good, IMO the Hitachi slightly better as it was more vibrant, but i think this was because the reds were turned up a little.

Anyway they both look lovely, i am almost on the verge of purchasing the Panny tho because i got a pretty good deal through a friend.

The price was $3300 + $230 for warranty, this is about as low asi am likely to see i think sa most other stores were around $3500 - $3600 cash without

warranty.

Decisions, decisions....

[complectus]

For the Panasonic i used these settings which were posted in this thread: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=43230

After adjusting the Panasonic's picture settings, how did it compare to the Hitachi for fine detail? I went on another reconnaisance mission this morning & asked a salesman if he had the Hitachi. He said no, but invited me to look closely at a Philips PF9631D, which he said had the same panel... I was quite impressed, as it looked very sharp, but when I got home I looked it up & found it was just another 768p panel. I really need to go & have a play with the panasonic's settings because I've never seen one that approached the level of detail that I've seen in the Hitachi. Given that most reviews state that the panasonic is among the very best 768p panels you can buy, I thought the softness of the picture was a limitation of the resolution. Having seen the Philips & being absolutely convinced (by its sharpness) that it was 1280x1080 ALiS as the salesman claimed, I'm now wondering whether the panasonics i've seen were poorly set up as well... I had a quick look around the web & found a review of the Philips at Trusted Reviews & it only got 7/10 for image quality.

More confusion! Aaaargh!!

LOL

[sanitarium]

well i've just come back from another store where they had the 2 side by side.

as i said before the Hitachi is "brighter" and more vibrant but the Panasonic seems to display blacks better. i did not adjust the settings on either these sets, although i did check them and at a glance the settings on the Panny seemed to be roughly like the recommended ones, and the rep stated that they were "set up as they came out of the factory".

So now i am also at a loss, i like the aesthetics of the Hitachi and even if the picture is more "vibrant" i personally think it looks better. The Panasonic i think i can get cheaper tho, must admit that i never bargained at all with the Hitachi's price. If i could get the same deal for the Hitachi i'd probably go for that. I will see what kind of a price i can get for it and then go from there as i can't go wrong with either of these panels!

[traumatized]

I have 50" Pioneer and a 42" Samsung both HD with built in HD tuner and i must say the pioneer is a great unit, now i'm no expect but the quaility of the unit is fanastic picture.

Picture quality is great on both unit but the Pioneer seems so much better and is backed with a 5year factory warranty so theres no need to buy extended warranty

Just thought i'd give my opinion thats all

[nis200979]

Funny thing is that at home you can't tell the difference between similiar models (Panasonic Vs Pioneer, LG Vs Samsung Vs Philips Vs Hitachi).

What is important?

Many the sound, Samsung and Philips sucks, LG is bad, Pana and Pio are excellent with Subwoofer out of Pana.

Features,

Pana and Pio have swivels stands

Panasonic has SD card input (incl video recording)

Philips has ambilight and USB

Warranty, Samsung has 2yrs, Pioneer has 5yrs

Service, Pioneer will deliver and install, 5yrs service and warranty.

Wall bracket, Pioneer choose bracket OR stand, Philips you get BOTH

Speed of iHD tuner to change channels, Pansonic the quickest I think

PiP, they all have it.

Quality-LG are in software recall currently, Samsung crappy sound, Philips made in China,...

Me, I'd buy the Panasonic. Many will appreciate the extras Pioneer include, or just fall in love with the aesthitics

Philips is good, but the reliability of previous Philips worries me, and they are BULKY compared to others.

Samsung blacks are poor, LG blacks are FAR better. Good warranty.

LG, I wouldn't touch an LG panel, but each to their own.

[diesel]

Features,

Pana and Pio have swivels stands

Only on the PX 42" Pana - not the 50"

Good luck with the purchase