MikeAusDTV Posted April 1, 2007 Posted April 1, 2007 LCoS is a generic name for the SXRD technology used in the Sony 60" and 70" Full HD Rear Projection units. Some quotes from http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1930289,00.asp "it's time to consider which display technology currently offers the best overall image and picture quality. The winner should be crowned the reference standard." "For example, in high ambient light the C grades received by LCDs for black level and contrast ratio are irrelevant, and should receive a low weight, possibly even zero. On the other hand, in a high-end Home Theater, those parameters are very important and might receive the highest weights of all. " "And the winner is… LCoS, the new Reference Standard for overall image and picture quality, dethroning the CRT after more than 75 years at the top. An impressive achievement for a technology that has only recently started shipping in quantity. " "But LCoS is likely to have an immediate impact at the top-end of the professional market, with the reference monitors used in television and movie post-production studios, particularly with the switch to true High Definition content and digital cinema. " "The difference between the extremely dark black of a CRT and the very dark black of an LCoS monitor is not visually apparent. So the days of the CRT as the operational Reference Standard are over." "About the Author: Dr. Raymond Soneira is President of DisplayMate Technologies Corporation of Amherst, New Hampshire, which produces video calibration, evaluation, and diagnostic products for consumers, technicians, and manufacturers. has also designed, tested, and installed color television broadcast equipment for the CBS Television Network Engineering and Development Department. He has authored over 35 research articles in scientific journals in physics and computer science, including Scientific American." Mike
MLXXX Posted April 1, 2007 Posted April 1, 2007 Three months ago I bought a Sony 60" SXRD 1920x1080 rear projection TV. Yesterday I strolled through some retail showrooms. I saw a lot of Sony Bravia LCD panels. A sprinking of other brands: LCDs and some Plasmas. Whenever I got close to a screen I could see a pixel screen-door effect. And everywhere there was -- and this is an individual experience -- a similar artificial look to the colour. I felt vindicated in the decision I took 3 months ago. The SXRD has a better pixel fill factor, and -- for my eyes -- significantly more natural colour. For me, the various drawbacks of rear-pro technology, e.g. silk screen effect, limited vertical viewing angle, can be lived with. The SXRD is actually cheaper than other large displays; even more so with recent drops in the street price. However the Aussie 60" and 70" SXRDs have apparently been selling poorly, leading to unconfirmed rumours that distribution will cease in this country. It's a strange world.
AndrewWilliams Posted April 1, 2007 Posted April 1, 2007 Well I own an SXRD and yes, they produce a nicer picture than LCD or plasma but I still think they need to improve in terms of motion blur and black level before it can be hailed as a CRT beater.
Riv39 Posted April 1, 2007 Posted April 1, 2007 The SXRD is actually cheaper than other large displays; even more so with recent drops in the street price. However the Aussie 60" and 70" SXRDs have apparently been selling poorly, leading to unconfirmed rumours that distribution will cease in this country. A simple case of poor marketing in my opinion, coupled with a lack of knowledge from the general masses with respect to modern RPTV technology.
StarDrifter Posted April 1, 2007 Posted April 1, 2007 A simple case of poor marketing in my opinion, coupled with a lack of knowledge from the general masses with respect to modern RPTV technology. The major factor is that your average mum and dad shopper don't know/can't tell with things like screen door effect, response time, black levels etc. I'd bet a lot don't even know about resolutions - and a lot think the 1366x768 displays are HD cos they say "HD ready" The fact is that those technical factors aren't visible to the average shopper in a shop - however the sexiness and cool factor of a think sex LCD or plasma panel is. It's not surprising they sell better than a bulky RPTV unit. And also the LCD offers a bigger WOW factor in the shop. Not everyone has a huge lounge room to want a 60 or 70 inch display and for those shopping for a 42 or 50 inch display the thin panels are a better option. Only the technically knowledgeable and people wanting a 60 inch or larger display would really consider the RPTV since LCD or plasma in those sizes are only for the wealthy.
MikeAusDTV Posted April 1, 2007 Author Posted April 1, 2007 It's not surprising they sell better than a bulky RPTV unit. Yep, "it's not a flat panel" is the one major objection I had to overcome, before my wife would agree to getting the SXRD. The $10,000 price tag on the 52" FullHD LCD helped also !
Riv39 Posted April 1, 2007 Posted April 1, 2007 The fact is that those technical factors aren't visible to the average shopper in a shop - however the sexiness and cool factor of a think sex LCD or plasma panel is. It's not surprising they sell better than a bulky RPTV unit. Bulky.......really......not really at approx 500mm deep they can sit on the same stand as a 50" plasma or LCD would use (albeit lower)
StarDrifter Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Bulky.......really......not really at approx 500mm deep they can sit on the same stand as a 50" plasma or LCD would use (albeit lower) It's all relative. It's not really "bulky" in a sense - but when compared to a thin flat panel it is "bulkier". The way I see it, if you're going to be sitting the LCD or plasma on a similar type cabinet/stand anyway, then there's not really a difference because when looking front on you can't see the bulky back of the RPTV anyway - the exception of course is for people looking to hang their TV on a wall - then obviously that is not possible with RPTV. Unfortunately your average shopper won't see it that way - a flat panel is always going to attract buyers more easily when compared to a "bulkier" RPTV - coupled with the fact that the average buyer is normally looking for 42" and 50" sizes - in which LCD and plasma have very competitive prices
Riv39 Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 It's all relative.It's not really "bulky" in a sense - but when compared to a thin flat panel it is "bulkier". The way I see it, if you're going to be sitting the LCD or plasma on a similar type cabinet/stand anyway, then there's not really a difference because when looking front on you can't see the bulky back of the RPTV anyway - the exception of course is for people looking to hang their TV on a wall - then obviously that is not possible with RPTV. Unfortunately your average shopper won't see it that way - a flat panel is always going to attract buyers more easily when compared to a "bulkier" RPTV - coupled with the fact that the average buyer is normally looking for 42" and 50" sizes - in which LCD and plasma have very competitive prices Agreed, unless you intend placing the panel on the wall the SXRD is far better value for money, interesting that Sony did not bring over the smaller SXRD, another indication that they prefer to sell the arguably inferior LCD panel at a much inflated price. As for performance vs LCD there is no doubt which is better but the average sales drone has about as much knowlege (or less) than the average buyer on which is better and why.
PanaSung Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Factors limiting the success of these TV's are IMO... 1...advertising...{I've not seen a single add for them}. 2...bulk. 3...limited attention given to them at showrooms, ie, poorly set up, poor positioning relative to LCD/PDP. 4...uncertainty over reliability/performance. 5...no reason for existing...ie, what difference does it make to the retail stores whether they sell a 50in Plas or 60in Lcos. 6...improving LCD/PDP tech about to kick ass.
Kabal Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 They seem to have been trying harder to sell the SXRD's recently though - quite a few big red sony stands with 60" sxrd + PS3.
OzHTfan Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Having owned SXRD equipped projectors and a display, I would love to proclaim them the new over all reference standard. In the digital world I would say yes, but we still aren't quite at the ultimate black level capability of CRT just yet. I say watch for what happens later in the year with Laser SXRD .
OzHTfan Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 They seem to have been trying harder to sell the SXRD's recently though - quite a few big red sony stands with 60" sxrd + PS3. Noticed this yesterday at Domayne. Definitely a good proactive way to force people see the superior quality rather write them off straight away because they're rear pro.
AndrewWilliams Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I don't really care if SXRDs are selling well or not. I just hope that if they ARE taken off the market that there's something better in terms of picture quality to replace them and from what I've seen, LCD and plasma don't cut the mustard. SED & OLED seem dead too which is a shame.
Nullack1503559755 Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Its self grattifying to know I own one of the best displays on the market, being the 60" SXRD LCOS Sony model. Though, any informed opinion cannot objectively or subjectively assert that these displays compete head to head with CRT - thats pure fantasy. Sony have some distance to travel with fixing the 60" model's well known fault and improving their customer service.
PanaSung Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Are people using these monsters for PC displays as well?
Ata Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Are people using these monsters for PC displays as well? I do -- once a week I open imdb.com and the MCE IceTV guide side by side to choose which HD movies are worth recording. -- Ata
PanaSung Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I do -- once a week I open imdb.com and the MCE IceTV guide side by side to choose which HD movies are worth recording. -- Ata So these TV's lack the versatility of a large LCD....okay, understood
Owen Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 You seem to misunderstand quite a lot mate, deliberately its would seem. The SXRD’s make very good PC monitors. My HTPC has only one display attached, and that’s my 70” SXRD. Everything that needs to be done on that PC is done on the SXRD, even adjusting BIOS settings on the PC before Windows has booted. I drive my HTPC like a normal PC, using a mouse and keyboard and I do not use a Media Centre type interface for anything. There is overscan to contend with, which I could eliminate if required, but I have found no reason to bother as it is easy enough to work around. The SXRD is a god send for the HTPC enthusiast because it works well as a PC monitor and is unmatched as a “Home Theatre” display. LCD’s make very good PC monitors but suck as a “Home Theatre” display, so for versatility the SXRD’s have it in my book.
AndrewWilliams Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I use my SXRD for PC gaming and HTPC. It does a far better job than any LCD I've used. Up close it doesn't look quite as sharp but it has a better pixel fill rate and from normal viewing distances it looks just as sharp as any LCD. Funnily enough I've even ditched my 20" LCD for PC use and gone back to my trusty CRT. Once you get over the novelty of a thin display and razor sharp text, you start to notice all of the shortcomings when it comes to colour, contrast, black level and shadow detail and motion blur.
Owen Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Its self grattifying to know I own one of the best displays on the market, being the 60" SXRD LCOS Sony model. Though, any informed opinion cannot objectively or subjectively assert that these displays compete head to head with CRT - thats pure fantasy.Sony have some distance to travel with fixing the 60" model's well known fault and improving their customer service. As the owner of a direct view 86cm HD CRT and a 57” HD CRT RPTV, both highly tuned, calibrated and HTPC driven, I can say that the SXRD is MUCH better then CRT in virtually every way except black level. Blacks can be improved significantly with a service menu adjustment and even more with a simple modification, but will never match the absolute black of a top class CRT. A tweaked SXRD still has the deepest blacks of any digital display currently available and it will be interesting to see if the future “Super black” Pioneer Plasma’s will be any better.
hotchilli Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I use my SXRD for PC gaming and HTPC. It does a far better job than any LCD I've used. Up close it doesn't look quite as sharp but it has a better pixel fill rate and from normal viewing distances it looks just as sharp as any LCD.Funnily enough I've even ditched my 20" LCD for PC use and gone back to my trusty CRT. Once you get over the novelty of a thin display and razor sharp text, you start to notice all of the shortcomings when it comes to colour, contrast, black level and shadow detail and motion blur. AndrewWilliams, I'm curious to know what kind of specs your HTPC runs if you are using it for gaming as well. I've been thinking of what I need to have to be able to run a PC as a HTPC as well as a gaming rig. Also what kind of games are you running? What kind of $$$'s am I looking at?
PanaSung Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 You seem to misunderstand quite a lot mate, deliberately its would seem.The SXRD’s make very good PC monitors. Ole mate Ata gave me the "rollseyes"...so I thought he was mocking the idea of using the SXRD's. Anyone would think you sold the things for a living
AndrewWilliams Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 AndrewWilliams, I'm curious to know what kind of specs your HTPC runs if you are using it for gaming as well. I've been thinking of what I need to have to be able to run a PC as a HTPC as well as a gaming rig. Also what kind of games are you running? What kind of $$$'s am I looking at? I'm running... Core2 E6600 XFX 8800 GTS 2GB Corsair TwinX PC6400 RAM MSI P965 Platinum MB Silverstone LC16M case Antec Neo High Efficiency 430W PSU Digitalnow Quattro S 2xDVB-T/S card WD 320GB SATA HD Logitech G7 Mouse MCE Keyboard & Remote Windows MCE 2005 (with ICE TV) Grand Total - far too bloody much ...but thankfully it's running like a dream so I can't complain. I don't play many games but so far I've played...GTR2, rFactor, R6:Vegas, AOE III, Titan Quest, CS:S and a few MAME games.
Owen Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Ole mate Ata gave me the "rollseyes"...so I thought he was mocking the idea of using the SXRD's.Anyone would think you sold the things for a living No way I would want to sell SXRD’s for a living, I’d go broke. Not enough smart people in the general populus to make a living out of it, Joe average is too court up in the small flat panel BS. I was however surprised to learn that two work colleagues who I never though of as being interested in such things have purchased 60” SXRD’s. I never once discussed the SXRD’s with them and they made the discission independently, so maybe more are being sold then we know about. If Sony did some marketing and displayed them properly in retailers the bloody things would sell them selves, and make Sony lots of money. You have to wonder about big companies some times, it’s a miracle they survive.
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