Topfield 5000 Caption Problem

[Steve B]

I just bought a TF5000PVRt (for $398! - see "Best Price" thread). I bought it after enquiring on this forum, stipulating that I needed a box with a dedicated button for captions as I have a hearing disability and use them all the time.

The Toppy came with October(?) 2005 firmware, under which, as a poster here had already pointed out, captions for ch.7 (here in Sydney, at least) aren't displayed (except by enabling teletext). Converting the machine to April 2005 firmware fixed this problem.

Now to the problem: I've noticed that, under playback (as opposed to viewing live TV) the captions are out of sync with the picture: they appear at least a second early. This is a deal breaker for me, and will mean I have to sell the Toppy and again ask for advice about a new PVR. PBK is the only TAP I've installed, and the problem still persists if I disable it.

Am I the first person to notice this bug? Is there someone out there willing to verify the problem? If you're not used to watching captions, you may not notice the problem immediately, but an easy test would be this:

Watch a couple of minutes of live TV with captions enabled and notice that you can read the captions *as the dialogue is spoken*. Especially, take note that you can read *right to the end of the caption* while it is being spoken.

Now rewind a few seconds and again watch the footage you just watched, and notice that the caption *disappears from the screen* before all the dialogue is spoken. If you watch the last couple of words of the caption, you'll notice they *disappear from the screen before you hear them*. The captions aren't shorter, they're appearing earlier, too, but this is a little harder to notice. The whole caption track is shifted forward at least a second under playback.

When the dialogue gets dense I find myself missing the ends of sentences, and having to rewind and pause to re-read what had already disappeared from the screen.

Does anyone out there know anything about this, and is anyone using more recent firmware able to verify that they don't have the problem?

Thanks in advance,

Steve = : ^ )

[funblest]

Steve B:

"I just bought a TF5000PVRt (for $398! - see "Best Price" thread). I bought it after enquiring on this forum, stipulating that I needed a box with a dedicated button for captions as I have a hearing disability and use them all the time."

Oooopppss..... just asked you on another thread if you'd bought anything..

Steve B:

"Now to the problem: I've noticed that, under playback (as opposed to viewing live TV) the captions are out of sync with the picture: they appear at least a second early."

Sorry can't help with this. I'm for real deaf so probably wouldn't be an issue for me.

What I wanted to ask you is this....

..... can you record two channels simultaneously with the Topfield and captions are recorded on BOTH playbacks?

Thanks

[Steve B]

..... can you record two channels simultaneously with the Topfield and captions are recorded on BOTH playbacks?

Wait till tonight when there's lots of captioned content and I'll test it.

Steve = : ^ )

[emibel]

I think captions have always been a bit ahead of the audio on the Toppy playback. As I rarely watch anything live, I wasn't aware that the problem only occurs on playback, and thought it may be a broadcaster problem. I only use captions occasionally when I can't understand the spoken words. I don't understand why it is a deal-breaker for you.

[funblest]

Steve B:

"Wait till tonight when there's lots of captioned content and I'll test it."

Thankyou Steve I look forward to your reply when convenient.

Best

[Dave®]

The BW currently does the same thing. As does the 5000 toppy with Feb '06 firmware - even on ch 7 with the teletext subtitles.

It's only really annoying (for me) if I can also hear the speech. With the sound turned off I'd hardly notice that the subtitles were a second or two ahead.

[Mr Flibble]

..... can you record two channels simultaneously with the Topfield and captions are recorded on BOTH playbacks?

The tests will be conclusive but I was under the impression that when the Toppy recorded a program (including two simultaneous programs) everything for that LCN is recorded (the picture, all audio tracks and captions). I know it definitely records both audio streams on the SD channels which have two so I don't see why it wouldn't record the captions just because it is recording from both tuners simultaneously.

[Steve B]

Steve B:

"Wait till tonight when there's lots of captioned content and I'll test it."

Thankyou Steve I look forward to your reply when convenient.

Best

I tested this and, yes, both recorded streams contain the caption info which can be enabled/disalbed during playback.

Steve = : ^ )

The BW currently does the same thing. As does the 5000 toppy with Feb '06 firmware - even on ch 7 with the teletext subtitles.

It's only really annoying (for me) if I can also hear the speech. With the sound turned off I'd hardly notice that the subtitles were a second or two ahead.

Gee, that's really bad news. Yes, if I was deaf, I guess I'd just read the captions and may not even notice that they're a little early. But I'm not, I like to listen to TV, too, but need the captions so that I don't miss much of the dialogue. It's impossible trying to read the captions while someone on screen is saying them a second later. You have to read in sync with the dialogue, so I keep missing the last part of each caption which has left the screen and been replaced by the next caption by the time it's spoken. Really disappointing. Does anyone know if Topfield know about this?

Thanks for the reply,

Steve = : ^ )

BTW does anyone know why, though it says "You are currently receiving email notification of replies", there are posts in this thread of which I haven't been notified?

[funblest]

I tested this and, yes, both recorded streams contain the caption info which can be enabled/disalbed during playback.

Steve = : ^ )

Thanks again Steve, I appreciate your reply. That will be helpful to me but I can understand the dissonance that a lag between voice and caption would induce in your case.

It's interesting that the captions can be enabled/disabled during playback. On my DVDR+T that does not happen. Once I record with captions, they always feature during playback.

Hopefully Topfield can help with your issue but based on their lack of response to my query about captions, I have doubts...

Best

[Mr Flibble]

BTW does anyone know why, though it says "You are currently receiving email notification of replies", there are posts in this thread of which I haven't been notified?

My notifications always come in a 1PM (if new posts have been made) rather than each time a post is made. Is it just the posts after a certain time you haven't (yet?) been notified of?

[Steve B]

My notifications always come in a 1PM (if new posts have been made) rather than each time a post is made. Is it just the posts after a certain time you haven't (yet?) been notified of?

Thanks. Yes, the posts were made after 1.00PM. You mean I won't be notified till 1.00PM the next day?

Also, Dave, I just found the Forums at topfield.com.au. I see you post there, and assume that the caption problem has been discussed, is known to anyone from Topfield who posts there, and that there's no point in me taking up bandwidth there with it. If any of this is wrong, let me know, and I'll post the problem there.

Thanks in advance,

Steve = : ^ )

[Mr Flibble]

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QUOTE(Steve B @ Mar 19 2007, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks. Yes, the posts were made after 1.00PM. You mean I won't be notified till 1.00PM the next day?

Thats how mine work. Notification emails arrive at 1pm. If any posts are made after that, I don't get notified until 1pm the following day.

[Steve B]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Steve B @ Mar 19 2007, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

Thanks. Yes, the posts were made after 1.00PM. You mean I won't be notified till 1.00PM the next day?

Thats how mine work. Notification emails arrive at 1pm. If any posts are made after that, I don't get notified until 1pm the following day.

Well that's weird; I've received notification of the post you made 30 mins. ago at 10.17PM.

Steve = : ^ \

[Mr Flibble]

Mmm, that is wierd. That's how it seems to be working but it wouldn't be the first time I've made a false assumption based on what happens 99% of the time I've only ever had notifications come through at 1pm (so far).

I've even had a look through the board settings but couldn't find anything that might change this??

[emibel]

Just to add to my earlier comments, I have been paying more attention to the closed captions during playback on my Toppy Masterpiece (Sep 2006 firmware), and I think it is definitely broadcaster-related, at least here in Adelaide. Seven is pretty much as the original poster described, with the CC appearing and disappearing significantly earlier than the audio on pretty well all their shows. However, ABC and Ten are much better. Spooks and The West Wing last Friday and Saturday were almost perfectly in sync, with most of the shows I have seen on Ten so far being only slightly ahead in appearing and generally staying on until the corresponding dialog has finished. I haven't watched the other channels enough to form an opinion.

[manu]

Sorry2 but in !!!!!!! Hi 2 all, looking 4 twin tuner stb read this site then picked a topfield 5000 pvrt 120gb found price 2 high $640 any ohter tips on a good make & model $400- $550 i live in w-sub. of melb.

thanks

[Mr Flibble]

The Toppy 4400, the Humax Smart & the Mediastar have similar functionality and are around that price.

I don't have any first hand experience with these models so have a bit of a search around this sub-forum (especially the pinned topics up the top) for more info.

[Steve B]

Just to add to my earlier comments, I have been paying more attention to the closed captions during playback on my Toppy Masterpiece (Sep 2006 firmware), and I think it is definitely broadcaster-related, at least here in Adelaide. Seven is pretty much as the original poster described, with the CC appearing and disappearing significantly earlier than the audio on pretty well all their shows. However, ABC and Ten are much better. Spooks and The West Wing last Friday and Saturday were almost perfectly in sync, with most of the shows I have seen on Ten so far being only slightly ahead in appearing and generally staying on until the corresponding dialog has finished. I haven't watched the other channels enough to form an opinion.

I'm the original poster and I have the out-of-sync subtitles problem on _all_ channels (as far as I can tell), *but it only happens during playback* - whether playing back a recording or time-slipping live TV. Subtitles on live TV is fine on all channels. I can't tell from your post if you're referring to live TV or playback.

Steve = : ^ )

[Dave®]

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QUOTE(Steve B @ Mar 19 2007, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Also, Dave, I just found the Forums at topfield.com.au. I see you post there, and assume that the caption problem has been discussed, is known to anyone from Topfield who posts there, and that there's no point in me taking up bandwidth there with it. If any of this is wrong, let me know, and I'll post the problem there.

Steve, I can't remember anyone ever mentioning it on the topfield forums. It wouldn't hurt to post about the problem there as there may be other subtitle users (who don't frequent these forums) who know of a firmware version that fixes the problem.

Topfield themselves rarely post on their forums. If you want to bring a problem to their attention you're better off phoning them.

[Steve B]

Topfield themselves rarely post on their forums. If you want to bring a problem to their attention you're better off phoning them.

Dave,

I rang them. The tech knew nothing about it, but said he'd report it. You've confirmed this with several different firmwares, right? And haven't found one that doesn't have the problem?

Steve = : ^ )

[Dave®]

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QUOTE(Steve B @ Mar 26 2007, 07:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've confirmed this with several different firmwares, right? And haven't found one that doesn't have the problem?

Actually, no. I normally don't use subtitles.

Strange... I just tested again on my 5000 with Feb 2006 firmware and recordings from 9 and 10 displayed subtitles perfectly in sync. While recordings from 7 were still about 1 sec out of sync (and required using teletext 801 to get subtitles). I wonder if I only tested ch 7 last time.

Many silver 5000 owners use May 2005 firmware because it shows subtitles even when fast forwarding and does not require using teletext for subtitles on ch 7. Maybe the May 2005 firmware also does not have the ch 7 subtitle sync problem.

[emibel]

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QUOTE(Steve B @ Mar 25 2007, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm the original poster and I have the out-of-sync subtitles problem on _all_ channels (as far as I can tell), *but it only happens during playback* - whether playing back a recording or time-slipping live TV. Subtitles on live TV is fine on all channels. I can't tell from your post if you're referring to live TV or playback.

Steve = : ^ )

I was referring to playback of previously-recorded programs, as I don't watch much live and I normally have time-shift disabled. It's possible that firmware differences affect the problem (you have the standard 5000PVRt, I believe, while I have the Masterpiece). I have subsequently found the subtitle situation to be even more variable. Spooks on the ABC last Friday was not as well synchronised as the previous week. The Einstein Factor on Sunday had to be seen to be believed. The closed captions were more than 2 MINUTES ahead of the audio. Ten last week had serious problems with CC on Tuesday and Thursday evening shows, with captions missing big chunks, but was fine on Wednesday, although Neighbours was well-synchronised every night, IIRC. So there are definitely broadcaster-related issues here in Adelaide with my setup.

[Steve B]

I was referring to playback of previously-recorded programs, as I don't watch much live and I normally have time-shift disabled.

I have it enabled, but have observed exactly the same behavior whether replaying recordings or time-shifting live TV.

It's possible that firmware differences affect the problem (you have the standard 5000PVRt, I believe, while I have the Masterpiece). I have subsequently found the subtitle situation to be even more variable. Spooks on the ABC last Friday was not as well synchronised as the previous week. The Einstein Factor on Sunday had to be seen to be believed. The closed captions were more than 2 MINUTES ahead of the audio.

I happened to catch it too. Clearly a problem with the transmission.

I still have subtitles consistently late on all except live material.

Steve = : ^ )

[Steve B]

Strange... I just tested again on my 5000 with Feb 2006 firmware and recordings from 9 and 10 displayed subtitles perfectly in sync. While recordings from 7 were still about 1 sec out of sync (and required using teletext 801 to get subtitles). I wonder if I only tested ch 7 last time.

I just tested 10, 9, 8, and 2 here in Sydney, time-slipping live TV. In every case the captions when time-slipping are significantly earlier than when watching live.

Many silver 5000 owners use May 2005 firmware because it shows subtitles even when fast forwarding and does not require using teletext for subtitles on ch 7. Maybe the May 2005 firmware also does not have the ch 7 subtitle sync problem.

That's the firmware I'm using, and I have the problem on all except live material. I notice there are May 10 2005 and May 12 2005 firmwares. Is this just the same file with two different names? Mine is May 12.

Have you tried time-slipping live TV with captions enabled using the Feb 2006 firmware?

Steve = : ^ )

[emibel]

Looks like I may be lucky having a Masterpiece as far as subtitles are concerned. I still have a very old standard TF5000PVRt which I hardly ever use these days. Its USB port is kaput, so it is running fairly old firmware, as I can't update it easily. You have me intrigued now, so I'll check out how the subtitles go on this unit.