Lcds 'winning' Over Plasmas

[pgdownload]

From The Age:

Sales of LCD TVs are massively outstripping those of plasma sets as Australians rush to embrace high-definition gadgets, new figures from market watcher GfK have revealed.

In the fourth quarter of last year, 188,933 LCDs were sold compared to just 85,565 plasmas, GfK analyst Angus Macaskill said in a phone interview.

It is a massive turnaround for LCD, whose second quarter 2005 sales of 35,657 trailed plasma's 42,074 figure.

GfK's numbers were based on sales data provided by about 95 per cent of electronics retailers in Australia, including all of the major department stores, Mr Macaskill said.

Large size options we're mentioned as a factor (Alothough till recently I thought LCDs went smaller and Plasmas larger? I can only assume that a large portion of these LCD screens are being bought as PC monitors.

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[MELso]

Also, the fact that LCD is both smaller and cheaper (in part by virtue of being smaller) than plasma...

Don't forget that we are enthusiasts and want BIG, whereas many punters just want something that sits unobtrusively in the corner.

[nvci3]

I still will not swap my plasma to LCD. I am watching the Aussie GP practice and it looks great.

[bertzz99]

Until response times come down to about 2ms and black levels are improved substantially on LCD it Plasma for me. I think that most users dont really care about these issues and PQ etc is not all that important. The burn-in scare campaign by LCD manuf. has obviously worked quite well. I read somewhere the other day that Americans believe that LCD technology is better than Plasma. Good old yanks, they sure know it all dont they!!!

[Skiller]

Until response times come down to about 2ms and black levels are improved substantially on LCD it Plasma for me. I think that most users dont really care about these issues and PQ etc is not all that important. The burn-in scare campaign by LCD manuf. has obviously worked quite well. I read somewhere the other day that Americans believe that LCD technology is better than Plasma. Good old yanks, they sure know it all dont they!!!

I'm scared of burn-in, but I'm more scared of being left with a dim screen after 5 years compared to an LCD that I could have bought at the same time. Plasmas just don't seem to have the same lastabillity . I watch TV in a well lit room.

[Sabbath]

Late last year I preferred the picture on the Sony 32v2000 to plasmas of a similar price. That's why i bought it.

Judging with ones own eyes helps ignore the often ill conceived arguements put forth by both sides. Who cares what someone else bought, let them enjoy the purchase of their product.

[angelus512]

Yeah thats disgusting and in my opinion unfortunately it serves the Plasma manufacturers right.

They haven't even lifted a finger to try and combat LCD yet.

Although I remember reading Matsushita(pana) and others like Pioneer were apparently joining forces to try and combat LCD by marketing to consumers the reality of why Plasma is better than LCD.

But yet to see it...

Its such a shame because as it stands LCD is simply catching up to Plasma, its only advantage is screen reso's and thats going to be eroded soon by the new 1080p panels in 42inch and above sizes.

LCD trails black level and we ALL know LCD trails in sports motion.

But most importantly the top 3 important things for a tv are

Black Level

Colour

Resolution

Reso is not number one yet too many people get sucked in by it and the end result of all this LCD buying....Plasma prices remain higher than they otherwise might be if more people bought them.

All round though, poor marketing on behalf of plasma manufacturers lit your game. The amoutn of people at my work that say "Duh LCD is way better than plasma" and when you try to explain why they aren't their eyes just glaze over due to watching too many dumb ads saying

"wow i'm going to buy a HUGE LCD screen"

or

"harvey norman the home of lcd, lcd sale blah blah"

I'd rather a CRT than an LCD.

[Skiller]

But most importantly the top 3 important things for a tv are

Black Level

Colour

Resolution

I dissagree, I say black level is one of the least important:

Colour

Resolution

Contrast (not to be confused with black level)

Sharpness

Inputs

Response rate

1:1 mapping

Decoding quality (tho not much of an issue when I get my HTPC)

Black Level

I can't stand the idea of buying a TV that you can see less on, but that's just my opinion, and I'm in the market primarily for gaming, TV second and PC use third so my needs are different to most people here. Also I find that LCDs have better blacks than CRTs, my laptop outdoes all CRTs in my house in black levels tho to be fair my CRTs are pretty average .

[PanaSung]

I dissagree, I say black level is one of the least important:

Black Level

Aren't black levels and contrast ratio's related..?

[Ata]

I agree that Plasma generally has the upper hand as far as overall picture quality goes. However, today's plasmas have three little known but important deficiencies:

-- black levels deteriorate rapidly with time, much faster than the reduction in peak brightness. A 1 year old plasma will have about half the contrast of a brand new one;

-- colours/hues are produced via pixel pulse modulation, and that interferes with motion and creates crawling/noise edge artifacts. Most people don't see them, but I do;

-- Most plasmas are 768p but they only accept 720p via HDMI (the only connection without loss of quality), *AND* they overscan. As a result, you end up with a 680p picture scaled on a 768p display, often using very primitive scaling algorithms. Now that hurts attainable picture quality (resolution) quite badly, and the only acceptable solution is 1:1 pixel mapping

-- Ata

[Anton-P.]

-- Most plasmas are 768p but they only accept 720p via HDMI (the only connection without loss of quality), *AND* they overscan. As a result, you end up with a 680p picture scaled on a 768p display, often using very primitive scaling algorithms.

My 768p plasma accepts 1080i, de-interlaces to 1080p then rescales to 768. With the end result on the screen no way I'd say primitive scaling algorithms.

Your claim it quickly loses black level does seem to be true. I noticed two units, one a Panasonic running an in-house promo video in a furniture shop (ie. 12hrs/day 6days/wk), and one a Hitachi in the TV room of an oil platform (on almost permanently), I could not get them any darker than light grey.

[JasonV]

I still havn't seen ANY LCD as clear and sharp as a higher end plasma. Even running a 1080p Blu-ray on a 1080p LCD. They all seem to have a soft, milky look about them. I had a look at the pioneer 1080p plasma and it kills any LCD iv'e ever seen.

[Ata]

My 768p plasma accepts 1080i, de-interlaces to 1080p then rescales to 768. With the end result on the screen no way I'd say primitive scaling algorithms.

Your claim it quickly loses black level does seem to be true. I noticed two units, one a Panasonic running an in-house promo video in a furniture shop (ie. 12hrs/day 6days/wk), and one a Hitachi in the TV room of an oil platform (on almost permanently), I could not get them any darker than light grey.

Up until the current generation plasmas all of them did a crude "bob" 1080i to 540p and then upscaling to 768p. Simply awful.

Of the current generation, I only know of the Panasonic and Pioneer doing a good job, and of course all the XXXXx1080 plasmas, most notably Hitachi and the 1080p bunch.

The quickly rising black level is a fact not a claim. It has been carefully hidden from the general public, but professional/engineering publications have discussed it quite well.

-- Ata

[big_marcelo]

I agree that Plasma generally has the upper hand as far as overall picture quality goes. However, today's plasmas have three little known but important deficiencies:

-- black levels deteriorate rapidly with time, much faster than the reduction in peak brightness. A 1 year old plasma will have about half the contrast of a brand new one;

-- Most plasmas are 768p but they only accept 720p via HDMI (the only connection without loss of quality), *AND* they overscan. As a result, you end up with a 680p picture scaled on a 768p display, often using very primitive scaling algorithms. Now that hurts attainable picture quality (resolution) quite badly, and the only acceptable solution is 1:1 pixel mapping

-- Ata

Mate seriously??????? where did you get your information from? your facts mentioned above are completely wrong! Do you have a plasma? have you done some basic research - ie: just plasma brochures will probably do .... to get your facts right...

people should buy whatever looks good to their eyes... however posting misinformation here as fact ... please ...

[Ata]

Mate seriously??????? where did you get your information from? your facts are completely wrong!

people should buy whatever looks good to their eyes... however posting misinformation here as fact ... please ...

Please be more specific as to what you consider misinformation, and I can point you to my sources.

I don't have an issue with your suggestion that everyone should buy whatever they want or looks good. However, bear in mind that some people would be more sensitive to artifacts.

My problem is having a very trained eye and perception that make me see the plasma "flashes" on fast moving content. This probably affects < 0.1% of the population.

-- Ata

[big_marcelo]

based on the information you posted above, I would be dissapointed at a long discussion here on the forum...

just be happy with whatever you bought mate... when you get seriously interested in HT, do some research, read some mags, some white papers, visit some stores, test some discs and then you'll know a little more about the 'facts' not just your opinions ...

I'm going back to enjoying my plasma full 1080i deinterlacing, great black levels, no crawling and the contrast ratio is great .... but hey ... that's my opinion ... definitely not a fact.

for facts you would have to check:

www.nec.com.au

www.pioneer.com.au

www.panasonic.com.au

www.hitachi.com.au

www.fujitsu.com.au

www.dvdo.com

www.avforums.com

www.homecinemachoice.com

www.avsforum.com

www.audioholics.com

www.hometheaterhifi.com

download some brochures, read the tech specs, see what resolutions are accepted via HDMI, check out the deinterlacing engines they have, how they handle motion, noise, artifact, etc...

anyone can posts whatever their opinions are here, that's what the forum is all about... however, if you are posting facts and voicing strong opinions based on those facts, its normally best to check the facts first ....

anyway... gotta go ...

[Cooksta59]

Up until the current generation plasmas all of them did a crude "bob" 1080i to 540p and then upscaling to 768p. Simply awful.

-- Ata

I agree with the comment re bob deinterlacing but if you feed that plasma a 720p signal?Looks pretty damned good to me

[achjimmy]

based on the information you posted above, I would be dissapointed at a long discussion here on the forum...

just be happy with whatever you bought mate... when you get seriously interested in HT, do some research, read some mags, some white papers, visit some stores, test some discs and then you'll know a little more about the 'facts' not just your opinions ...

I'm going back to enjoying my plasma full 1080i deinterlacing, great black levels, no crawling and the contrast ratio is great .... but hey ... that's my opinion ... definitely not a fact.

for facts you would have to check:

www.nec.com.au

www.pioneer.com.au

www.panasonic.com.au

www.hitachi.com.au

www.fujitsu.com.au

download some brochures, read the tech specs, see what resolutions are accepted via HDMI, check out the deinterlacing engines they have, how they handle motion, noise, artifact, etc...

anyway... gotta go ...

Reviewed a metz LCD this week. unfortnatley for the retailer he happened to be playing the Zorro movie chapter 13 (i think, but can confirm) where the two dons walk into a corridor. Motion blur was UNBLEVIABLE, could not belive it was LCD so i requested the DVD be played on the 42" Fujistu Plasma. There was some artifacts evident but nothing like the LCD pertrayed. Sorry but IMHO LCD has nothing on Plasma and i have a LCD in bedroom and are very happy.

But if you have bought LCD and are happy great.

[big_marcelo]

I love my plasma... if I was allowed by the CFO to get a TV for the bedroom... it would have to be an LCD.... for the size.... and I would know what I was getting into ....

[PanaSung]

based on the information you posted above, I would be dissapointed at a long discussion here on the forum...

anyone can posts whatever their opinions are here, that's what the forum is all about... however, if you are posting facts and voicing strong opinions based on those facts, its normally best to check the facts first ....

anyway... gotta go ...

When you come back, are you going to have a go at Anton P as well?

[Ata]

based on the information you posted above, I would be dissapointed at a long discussion here on the forum...

just be happy with whatever you bought mate... when you get seriously interested in HT, do some research, read some mags, some white papers, visit some stores, test some discs and then you'll know a little more about the 'facts' not just your opinions ...

I'm going back to enjoying my plasma full 1080i deinterlacing, great black levels, no crawling and the contrast ratio is great .... but hey ... that's my opinion ... definitely not a fact.

for facts you would have to check:

www.nec.com.au

www.pioneer.com.au

www.panasonic.com.au

www.hitachi.com.au

www.fujitsu.com.au

www.dvdo.com

www.avforums.com

www.homecinemachoice.com

www.avsforum.com

www.audioholics.com

www.hometheaterhifi.com

download some brochures, read the tech specs, see what resolutions are accepted via HDMI, check out the deinterlacing engines they have, how they handle motion, noise, artifact, etc...

anyone can posts whatever their opinions are here, that's what the forum is all about... however, if you are posting facts and voicing strong opinions based on those facts, its normally best to check the facts first ....

anyway... gotta go ...

You don't seriously expect me to believe everything the commercial brochures say, right? These brochures are made to sell, not to discuss potential deficiencies of the products. Did Panasonic mention they are using a cheap bob deinterlacer until last years' generation? No, yet they did emphasize the new deinterlacing/scaling engine in their current generation. You will only be told of issues in today's generation in the marketing brochures of the next generations.

As for the more respectable enthusiast sites you mention, yes, I have been following them for the last 7 years.

So back to my so called "claims" and "misinformation":

the deteriorating black levels:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov06/4697

various pulse modulation related artifacts (rainbows, flashes, snakes, etc.):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765341

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603995

For the scaler issues and the fact that bob deinterlacing was used in all domestic use plasmas until 2006, just search this forum. Owen frequently has informative and objective information on many topics.

And let me be clear -- I don't own a plasma, nor an LCD, and my only bias is my eyes. YMMV.

-- Ata

[Anton-P.]

Did Panasonic mention they are using a cheap bob deinterlacer until last years' generation? No, yet they did emphasize the new deinterlacing/scaling engine in their current generation.

You mean last year's generation being the 8th gen 50A/500A series?

Well ... a test by Home Theater (US) says it has something better than just bob deinterlacer.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/0506halfrez/

[Ata]

You mean last year's generation being the 8th gen 50A/500A series?

Well ... a test by Home Theater (US) says it has something better than just bob deinterlacer.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/0506halfrez/

Good point, but you have to agree the deinterlacing test was quite primitive. Let's see what the original review site (Ultimate AV mag) says about the current Panasonic TH-50PX600 (http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/107panath50/index4.html):

Far more problematic to me was the complete washing out of high frequency information with 1080i HD signals from my AccuPel test generator with HDMI. There was nothing but a gray band where the single pixel width areas of the luma and chroma bursts should be, which represent the 37.1MHz threshold of 1080i HD. Worse, even the double pixel wide areas of the burst looked more banded and ragged than usual, suggesting seriously compromised HD resolution at 1080i. 720p looked much better, with strong resolution at 37.1MHz, suggesting that if your HD set-top box offers you the choice you might get a better picture using 720p instead of 1080i—depending of course on the quality of your set-top 's deinterlacer/scaler. 1080i bursts via component video didn't do any better at 37.1MHz, but was better at 18.5MHz (double pixel width bursts) and also had better chroma response. And 720p component looked better still with strong resolution out to 37.1MHz, but with some slight banding. 480i and 480p were strong out to their frequency limits.

-- Ata

[cummo]

Ata,

I've taken the following quotes from the article you've put foward as proof of reclining black levels in plasma panels.

Manufacturers today claim 60 000 hours of use before the brightness falls by half (based on a few hundred hours of testing). Contrast, however, is more important than brightness. Recent tests by market research firm IDC, in Framingham, Mass., measured a 13 percent decline in the darkness of the black of a typical plasma television after four weeks of use; after five years of use, such a rapid decline could lead to blacks displaying as light grays.

The writer is quite happy to bag the manufacturer's several hundred hours of testing to assume a 60,000 hour plasma half brightness claim. He then states a market research firm (level of expertise?), after 4 weeks of testing, has made an assumption on what will happen to a panel in 5 years time.

It is common knowledge that a plasma in its first few months of use will bed itself in and its settings will vary quite a lot during this period. This is the reason you don't have a professional calibration performed on a new panel during the break-in period. Using the decline in the black levels of a panel during this period as evidence of its longitivity is garbage.

I don't have to rely on assumptions. I've owned 3 plasma panels over the past 5 years. I have a 3.5 years old Panasonic PHD6 wall mounted in my bedroom. It was the bench mark for black levels back then and it would still compete very well with the best of them today. In a totally blackened room, the panel still has very good dark grey blacks.

To be sure, plasma manufacturers have worked hard to address the technology’s deficiencies. They have developed ­longer-life phosphors, and they have made great strides in controlling light leakage between cells, successfully displaying darker blacks. But plasma sets with these improvements cost significantly more than competing LCD sets. And in any case, ordinary consumers are mostly buying the cheaper sets, in which the problems remain.

Is this guy basing all his information on the 'Yum-Cha' brands of plasma panels. Panasonic have been the long time reference point for black levels in their plasmas. They are also the major reason for the sharp decline in the the price of all brands of over the last few years. They are one of the many manufacturers with the stated improvements and they are also well priced compared to the competing LCD sets.

[Holden1503560432]

At the moment I prefer my plasma as they seem to be more forgiving if the source is not perfect , as everything is not broadcast in hd