drkrac Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 Hi guys, Time to show my complete ignorance and maybe perhaps learn a thing or two from the more experienced of you out there. Last year a started to put together a HT system based around a Denon 3806 AVR and some B&W 603's. Now for movies this set up is fantastic - more than adequate. However I am a little underwhelmed by the 2ch performance (still great, don't get me wrong, but I know it can be better). So, I'm thinking that one of the more economical ways to improve the performance in 2ch may be to add a power amp for the front channels to replace the amp stages of the 3806, leaving the 3806 to power the centre and rear speakers for movies. So, something like the Rotel RB-1070 would be nice (and about the right price too). My only question then is how will the sound levels balance between the speakers being run by the Power Amp and the AVR? I can balance them using a SPL meter right? But will the Audissey EQ set up on the AVR still be able to do this (being that I am using the Pre-Outs for the front two channels)? What I'm asking is will the EQ on the AVR still affect the signal being sent to the Pre-Outs? I'm only starting to learn how expensive this "hobby" can be!
wheelz Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 Nt sure about the eq thing but you would be better off adding the RB-1080 as i dont think there will be a huge improvement by adding the RB-1070
ozcal Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 Hi guys,Time to show my complete ignorance and maybe perhaps learn a thing or two from the more experienced of you out there. Last year a started to put together a HT system based around a Denon 3806 AVR and some B&W 603's. Now for movies this set up is fantastic - more than adequate. However I am a little underwhelmed by the 2ch performance (still great, don't get me wrong, but I know it can be better). So, I'm thinking that one of the more economical ways to improve the performance in 2ch may be to add a power amp for the front channels to replace the amp stages of the 3806, leaving the 3806 to power the centre and rear speakers for movies. So, something like the Rotel RB-1070 would be nice (and about the right price too). My only question then is how will the sound levels balance between the speakers being run by the Power Amp and the AVR? I can balance them using a SPL meter right? But will the Audissey EQ set up on the AVR still be able to do this (being that I am using the Pre-Outs for the front two channels)? What I'm asking is will the EQ on the AVR still affect the signal being sent to the Pre-Outs? I'm only starting to learn how expensive this "hobby" can be! I don't have enough experience with the Denons to be able to answer your question re the onboard eq but the 1070 will be a sonically great match for the B&W's .If you can stretch to the 1080 this would be my recommendation for best sound quality vs value for money.The 1070 is good the 1080 is just better imo, even with speakers that are rellatively easy to drive. Gordon
Cody Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 cant say for sure as i havent tried it with a denon/audissey, but i know the MCAAC on my pioneer has no trouble with my MF amp driving the L&R speakers (in terms of controlling the levels etc). wrt to improving the 2ch side, i looked into this recently myself and after advice from people on this forum decided agaist adding a power amp (was looking at the Elektra7), instead opting for a 2ch integrated amp (MF A3.5). the reason for this was to upgrade both the pre and power stage and basically cut the AVR out of the loop completely. this is as opposed to adding a power amp only, in which case your relying on the AVR as a preamp. anyway, another option!
Gutty Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 Recently did just this with my Yamaha RX-V1600. Took the Yammy into the Rotel dealer, hooked it up to a 1070, and switching between the 2 the difference was massive. A huge upgrade in depth and bass. Being that i could afford it, was going to go for the RMB 1075 5 channel amp, but could't get one so i actually ended up with a 1080 and couldn't be happier. Well, i probably could, but lets just say, for the money spent i'm very impressed indeed. While i was demoing i also tried the Rotel RC 1070 pre amp, but didn't detect a huge difference from that to the Yammy as a pre, so opted for just the power amp. Also demo'd a Nad C372 integrated, but thought it lacked clarity compared to the other setups. If you got the funds, maybe the MF route like Disgruntled Goat and many others have taken would be a better option ? I could have actually gone this way myself, but without actually being able to demo the MF was very hesitant. hope that's some help Edit: link to my thread here
mozart1503560475 Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 I too have considered the MF integrated option. How easily does this work with bass management on 2ch? I presume you would have to ignore the sub RCA out on your AVR and utilise the bass management features on your sub directly by wiring it into the speaker circuit? One advantage of utilising an AVR like a 3806 for your 2ch is the ability to customise the bass management, particularly important if you use monitors like me (602S3 B&Ws) in conjunction with a sub.
moochy1503560064 Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 im running B&W 603's in a surround setup using a sony ES receiver and Rotel 1075 and have no complaints. i didnt even try setting it up with the receiver so i cant comment on what a diffrence it may/may not have made.
drkrac Posted March 9, 2007 Author Posted March 9, 2007 Thanks guys, much appreciate the input. I have a feeling I need to try a bit of a demo - if I can't get an "in-home" trial I might try getting someone to set up a 3806 with the 1070 (1080 just stretches the budget too far - although maybe after I hear it I'll think otherwise ) and preferrably some 603's for a listen. I think e-home in Carnegie and Klapp carry all this gear. Also appreciate the thoughts on going integrated with HT bypass, but WAF is going to be hard enough as it is!
betty boop Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 I too have considered the MF integrated option. How easily does this work with bass management on 2ch? I presume you would have to ignore the sub RCA out on your AVR and utilise the bass management features on your sub directly by wiring it into the speaker circuit? One advantage of utilising an AVR like a 3806 for your 2ch is the ability to customise the bass management, particularly important if you use monitors like me (602S3 B&Ws) in conjunction with a sub. somethign like a 2ch integrated you simply hook upto the pre-outs of hte avr and have yoru front mains hooked upto the speaker terminals of the 2ch integrated. all bass management etc for ht works as normal. the power amps in the integrated is used instead of that in the avr. for 2ch the real beauty is the better 2ch pre section on the 2ch integrated. if considering use of the sub for 2ch with utilising a 2ch integrated this si done as well the likes of drizt is doing so with his 2ch integrated What about an Elektra addition? an elktra theatre7 theatron will certainly help in the power amp stakes but what it will not do is improve on the pre stage fo the 3805 which si what like many avr is what pretty much screws up the 2ch side of things. to improve on the pre stage you need ot either use a 2ch pre which can be pricey or alternatively utilise a 2ch integrated that gives you a 2ch pre + pwr upgrade in the one hit.
jdh500 Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 I've owned the Rotel RB-1070, RB-1080 and RMB-1075, for 2ch music, out of the 3 Rotel amps the RB-1080 was the best followed by the RB-1070 and then just behind the RMB-1075. My AV pre-amp is a Rotel RSP-1066, I use a NuForce P8 2ch pre with HT bypass for 2ch music. Out of the three Rotel amps if I was you I'd be trying to buy the RB-1080 and use your AVR as a pre-amp, at a later stage you can always add a dedicated 2ch pre-amp. If funds are tight the RB-1070 will still sound better than your AVR. In the end I sold the Rotel Amps and purchased the 7ch Elektra Power amp which in my opinion was far better but at a higher cost, the Rotel power amps however are very good value for money, either new or secondhand. JDH. Thanks guys, much appreciate the input. I have a feeling I need to try a bit of a demo - if I can't get an "in-home" trial I might try getting someone to set up a 3806 with the 1070 (1080 just stretches the budget too far - although maybe after I hear it I'll think otherwise ) and preferrably some 603's for a listen. I think e-home in Carnegie and Klapp carry all this gear.Also appreciate the thoughts on going integrated with HT bypass, but WAF is going to be hard enough as it is!
moochy1503560064 Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 what about biamping from a 1075? ive just got the splitter cables todo this and will be doing swap this monday hopefully will run the rears off my AVR cheers mike
drkrac Posted March 9, 2007 Author Posted March 9, 2007 what about biamping from a 1075? ive just got the splitter cables todo this and will be doing swap this monday hopefully will run the rears off my AVR cheers mike Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I'm currently bi-amping using the 3806 and there is no doubt that it benefits from this. I guess this probably means that they would also appreciate the extra power available from the 1080. 1075, 1080, MF A3.5, you guys are pure evil..................
drkrac Posted March 10, 2007 Author Posted March 10, 2007 OK, went into Klapp this morning and asked about using the 3806 as a pre with the 1070 or 1080. Said that Audyssey will still work the same and are happy to set up a demo some time for me. Ended up walking out after putting a down payment on an LCR600 which required a little fast talking once I got home
mozart1503560475 Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 OK, went into Klapp this morning and asked about using the 3806 as a pre with the 1070 or 1080. Said that Audyssey will still work the same and are happy to set up a demo some time for me. Ended up walking out after putting a down payment on an LCR600 which required a little fast talking once I got home You won't regret the LCR600. It is a beast and if you ever go down the SACD path gives a sensational music panorama too!
Cody Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 OK, went into Klapp this morning and asked about using the 3806 as a pre with the 1070 or 1080. Said that Audyssey will still work the same and are happy to set up a demo some time for me. Ended up walking out after putting a down payment on an LCR600 which required a little fast talking once I got home good stuff btw, forgot to mention - prices start around $2k RRP for 2ch integrated amps w/bypass. i think the A3.5 is probably about the cheapest out there, at around $1700 with some haggling
RodN Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 I had the 1080 for some time.... very very sweet amp......
Souwalker Posted March 11, 2007 Posted March 11, 2007 I have the RB1080 for 2channel music (main speakers) with a Luxman pre amp. A mono block for the centre channel piggy-back to my digital a/v amp (luxman pre-amp too) which is soley to power the rear speakers. I bought the RB1080 to replace my Luxman Power amp whihc I had for almost 20 years old. Such a sweet sounding power amp. The rb1080 is no luxman. A bit rough around the edges but the luxman pre-amp smoothens it a bit. The rb1080 os value for money. Pat
RichardN Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 snip...Also appreciate the thoughts on going integrated with HT bypass, but WAF is going to be hard enough as it is! OK, went into Klapp this morning and asked about using the 3806 as a pre with the 1070 or 1080. Said that Audyssey will still work the same and are happy to set up a demo some time for me. Ended up walking out after putting a down payment on an LCR600 which required a little fast talking once I got home Love it, don't recall seeing anything about a centre speaker anywhere above??? I think it's Spearmint's sig that says, "Somtimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission" or something along those lines..... But seriously, I have exactly the same problem (with the WAF also!), more than happy with HT, but CD playback unconvincing. Fairly recently I went from playing CDs via DVD player to buying a dedicated CD player, NAD C542, and while far from being a high end player, it improved things a lot. From this discussion and others, the integrated with HT bypass is the logical step for both you and I, so of course I went and bought new speakers to replace the 603s (well soon anyway). As Al and others have mentioned, changing the AVR as pre to a proper pre/power or integrated will almost definitely give you the biggest improvement. As for the MF A3.5, not sure if there are too many about at the moment?? I'm pretty sure Len Wallis (who I think are the importers) have stopped bringing them in. Another integrated which has HT bypass (can fix one of the inputs to be fixed gain) and is fairly reasonable is the (new) Cambridge Audio 740R. After a quick google, Wicked Digital was the first url I came up with. One other thing, you've probably gathered by now anyway, but Audyssey will still work no worries whether you add just a power amp (2, 5, 6 or 7) or an integrated with HT bypass. Only time it will be a problem is if you add an integrated WITHOUT the HT bypass (although this CAN also be done, just need to set the volume dial to a particular setting and is not as convenient) Anyway, hope this helps, good luck and report back on your journey.
Cody Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 As for the MF A3.5, not sure if there are too many about at the moment?? I'm pretty sure Len Wallis (who I think are the importers) have stopped bringing them in. if not Len Wallis, then CAV in Melbourne would be the best bet. CAV bought the last of the A3.5i stock (from Len Wallis of course), but they did mention to me there would be more at some point. The CA 840A also seems to be a good option, i note it picked up a SmartHouse award for best 2ch amp, havent heard it myself though. interesting class XD design..
betty boop Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 if not Len Wallis, then CAV in Melbourne would be the best bet. CAV bought the last of the A3.5i stock (from Len Wallis of course), but they did mention to me there would be more at some point. The CA 840A also seems to be a good option, i note it picked up a SmartHouse award for best 2ch amp, havent heard it myself though. interesting class XD design.. another one to keep in mind is the arcam a90, top integrated as well at $2k, plus can build a whole arcam system around that one.
drkrac Posted March 12, 2007 Author Posted March 12, 2007 Love it, don't recall seeing anything about a centre speaker anywhere above??? I think it's Spearmint's sig that says, "Somtimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission" or something along those lines..... But seriously, I have exactly the same problem (with the WAF also!), more than happy with HT, but CD playback unconvincing. Fairly recently I went from playing CDs via DVD player to buying a dedicated CD player, NAD C542, and while far from being a high end player, it improved things a lot. Yeah, I forgot to mention that a centre speaker has been on the cards for a while. I'm sure that integrated 2 channel is the best way ahead - just need to sort out a few more pressing financial matters before decided to drop another $2k or so (not the least of which is paying off the rest of the LCR600 )
willyroo Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 I recently added a Denon AVR-3300 to an Arcam/Vandersteen 2-ch system, and thanks to alebonau's excellent HT FAQ am now up and running with pretty good HT in addition to a very musical setup. The biggest change to the capability of both (5.1-ch HT and 2-ch music) was a REL subwoofer. The Arcam has suddenly been "freed", and is now far more dynamic and "grunty" - this from an already good amp. (Bit OT from your question but worth thinking about if you're happy to expand bit-by-bit.) Buy the best 2-ch integrated you can, then build your system from there.
RichardN Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 if not Len Wallis, then CAV in Melbourne would be the best bet. CAV bought the last of the A3.5i stock (from Len Wallis of course), but they did mention to me there would be more at some point. The CA 840A also seems to be a good option, i note it picked up a SmartHouse award for best 2ch amp, havent heard it myself though. interesting class XD design.. Mmmm, good to know about the MF.Thought the 840R might be a bit pricey (rrp$2,200) as drkrac mentioned the 1070 (RRP$899) was within budget, even though of course the 740 looks to be $1500 (@WD anyway), but maybe with a bit of haggling it might be had for cheaper?? Seems to be the cheapest integrated with HT bypass I've seen anyway and then drkrac would end up with a pre and power upgrade in the one box for not too much more than he was looking at spending anyway. Yes, not sure on the class XD, but worth a listen at the very least. One interesting thing (I thought anyway) about the 740 is even though it's rated at 100w into 8, it potentially draws 750w (840 is 800w) so there's definitely some grunt to be had for driving a couple of channels.
Cody Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 are you sure the 740 has a HT bypass? i didnt think it did and cant find any reference to it on the CA website?
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