New B&w Dm602 S3, Ears Hurt At High Volumes

[spurxiii]

I'm the proud new owner of some B&W DM602 S3s I've got them powered with a Yammie RX-V557. They are my first speaker purchases ever. They sound great at low and moderate volumes for stereo music and also great for movies at any volume. But when turn the volume up in stereo they kind of hurt my ears.

I've calibrated them for 75dB when the volume level is at -6dB and in stereo when I have the volume up at -15dB or more they start to hurt my ears.

The speakers are 2 weeks old. Is this a case where some more breaking in time will mellow out the sound?

I've got a Richter Thor MkIV subwoofer and I have the crossover set at 100hZ. I have tried 60hZ and 80hZ but 100hZ sounds best for me.

Has anyone got experience with B&Ws and whether the sound will change? Do I need a better AV Receiver? Even if it doesn't it really doesn't bother me because I don't listen to music very loud. But I'd still like to know that they will eventually sound good even if I did want to play them loud.

Thanks.

[mozart1503560475]

Yes they definitely do need to break in. Mine took about 3 weeks. However they certainly didn't "hurt" at high levels the way you describe. The 602 S3 B&W's are quite power hungry and they are definitely a few classes above a Yammie 557 (probably a better match for a 1700 or 2700). In this instance I suspect that your amplifier could be causing the issue.

I'm running mine through a Denon 3805 and couldn't be happier, and even though the 3805 is one of the beefier AV amps out there, the 602's could still benefit with a bit more power (eg a dedicated integrated amp like a MF 3.5). I'd say wait a few weeks for them to settle, but if you really want the speakers to shine look at upgrading your amp. They are an outstanding monitor and when coupled with a well matched sub, the equal of many floorstanders costing several times as much.

I assume you have them on a nice set of sturdy stands too?

[spurxiii]

Yes they're on a set of very sturdy 60cm stands. Don't get me wrong, they sound great at moderate volumes. I've calibrated for -6dB on the volume dial to be 75dB with the test tones and I don't think I can watch any movies or listen to any music at those volumes (way too loud), but it hurts my ears at -15db on the volume dial.

Thanks for your advice I'll wait a couple more weeks and let them breakin a bit more and see while I start saving up for some more power.

[mozart1503560475]

Yes they're on a set of very sturdy 60cm stands. Don't get me wrong, they sound great at moderate volumes. I've calibrated for -6dB on the volume dial to be 75dB with the test tones and I don't think I can watch any movies or listen to any music at those volumes (way too loud), but it hurts my ears at -15db on the volume dial.

Thanks for your advice I'll wait a couple more weeks and let them breakin a bit more and see while I start saving up for some more power.

Of course it could just be that loud noises (however clear, accurate and dynamic) make your ears hurt Have fun with the B&W's. I have the LCR 600 centre too... now that is a beast of a centre channel and things can get real loud with that.

[joz]

I'm the proud new owner of some B&W DM602 S3s I've got them powered with a Yammie RX-V557. They are my first speaker purchases ever. They sound great at low and moderate volumes for stereo music and also great for movies at any volume. But when turn the volume up in stereo they kind of hurt my ears.

I've calibrated them for 75dB when the volume level is at -6dB and in stereo when I have the volume up at -15dB or more they start to hurt my ears.

The speakers are 2 weeks old. Is this a case where some more breaking in time will mellow out the sound?

I've got a Richter Thor MkIV subwoofer and I have the crossover set at 100hZ. I have tried 60hZ and 80hZ but 100hZ sounds best for me.

Has anyone got experience with B&Ws and whether the sound will change? Do I need a better AV Receiver? Even if it doesn't it really doesn't bother me because I don't listen to music very loud. But I'd still like to know that they will eventually sound good even if I did want to play them loud.

Thanks.

What possibly could be doing this is the fact the the B+Ws have a metal tweeter,couple this with not being run in and quite a bright model of Yammy receiver.Push this combo hard and things start to strain up the top end.

The 602s are quite detailed and bright for some,so a fuller warmer sounding amp may help.I believe the 2700's don't have that hard edge that the more budget series do.

I personaly steered away from the 6 series at the time of purchase because of this trait even though they do some things nicely.

[Guest Conifer]

All my speakers are BW

I have 4 of the CWM LCR 7 BW speakers: http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseac...20CWM%20LCR%207

and I use DM603 for rears speakers

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseac...el%20DM603%20S3

All my BW speakers run off power amps and they sound great.

Happy listening with your BW speakers, nice choice

[norpus]

All my speakers are BW

I have 4 of the CWM LCR 7 BW speakers: http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseac...20CWM%20LCR%207

and I use DM603 for rears speakers

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseac...el%20DM603%20S3

All my BW speakers run off power amps and they sound great.

Happy listening with your BW speakers, nice choice

Interesting Toet those LCRs. They look almost look like rearranged 604s' until you realise the cones are only 4". I can undertand the 3 for the front soundstage, but are you using the 4th for a centre rear?

To the OP re the harsh DM602, this is odd to me. I have run 603 asmains and still run 601 as rears and have never felt the top end to be harsh. In fact the opposite if anything - lacking in some brightness, especially compared to some others like ribbons.

So I reckon its your amplification at 'loud levels'.

** Please define 'loud' in terms of spl on your spl meter at seating position, room size and distance from the mains so we can understand your circumstance better thanks. Also what furnishings are in/on the room, and where are the speakers placed in relation to walls (for reflections off windows/walls etc)

I would imagine these will go to 90dB+ without clipping distortion easily if the amplification is good. If the avr can't manage that with only two 90dB/watt speakers, something is wrong. If you are trying to run 5 speakers off the relatively low powered avr, it will likely be running out of power supply and clipping. Not only is this harsh on the ears, it will also eventually blow the B&W tweeters!

If you are trying to listen much louder than 90dB, you should have larger speakers (floorstanders) with higher spl capability as you are reaching the dynamic limits of most bookshelfs and compression will result

According to the avr manual, http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/eng...e/RX-V557_U.pdf , this avr has a small power supply of 360watts max. Given like most it is probably only 50% efficient at converting that to sound, that means its 90watt 20-20kHz 0.06%THD spec per channel (only 1 or 2 channels driven) is about its limit. If you were running all 6 channels, divide by 3-6!

I personally like the 602 - they are the pick of the bunch for the 600 series, so well done on that choice.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseac...el%20DM602%20S3

Looking at the specs, they are 3dB down at 49Hz, so in my room I would go for a 80Hz crossover to the Thor, but you have already stated your preference and the higher 100Hz crossover will certainly help the amp (I am assuming uou are using the sub in 2.1 for music?)

[Guest Conifer]

Interesting Toet those LCRs. They look almost look like rearranged 604s' until you realise the cones are only 4". I can undertand the 3 for the front soundstage, but are you using the 4th for a centre rear?

I have LCR's all at the front, I use 2 LCR's for the centre speaker

sounds great

[norpus]

I have LCR's all at the front, I use 2 LCR's for the centre speaker

sounds great

Understood Any combing noticed with the dual centres?

[Guest Conifer]

Understood Any combing noticed with the dual centres?

I find that a few action dvd's the dialog comes through weak.

I have noticed a difference, but thats me. Both of my centre LCR 7 are running off power amps.

EX & ES so the extra 2 rears speaker are yet to up grade as I'm running Jamo bookshelf speakers

[spurxiii]

The room is approx. 4m x 5m x 2.4m ceiling, carpeted with lots of soft furnishings all around (sofa, big ottoman etc).

I've used the test tomes on my receiver to set the 75dB level using the SPL meter, when the volume dial is at -6dB on th receiver. When I listen in 2 channel I use the sub as well in Straight Mode so only the DM602s are in operation together with the sub.

When I listen to music with the volume dial at -15dB it starts to hurt my ears. So at the so called reference levels (-6dB on the volume dial), I think it is way to loud.

I haven't actually measured the SPL on music at this volume but I know it is much louder than the test tones played at 75dB. Thanks for that suggestion, I'll measure the SPL of 2 channel music when i get home. Who knows, it may be hurting my ears because I'm actually listening at volumes above 100dB because of all the dynamic peaks in music.

[alfalfa]

Here is a comprehensive review of the 602s3 speakers

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/903BW/index4.html

Looking at the measurements (Fig 1), we see a noticeable peak at 9khz which corresponds to the reviewers subjective comments that the speaker's treble was a little prominent and "high-frequency details were a little more obvious than I've heard from speakers that measure flat in the treble".

Combine this with a cheaper lower powered yamaha receiver which have a reputation for being on the bright side, and you have a likely cause for your ears hurting at high volumes.

Do you have you speakers toed in or pointing straight ahead? Toeing them in will make the peak worse. Point them straight ahead and try positioning them further apart. Sitting more off axis appears to reduce the effect of the treble peak.

You could also place soft material on the walls beside and behind speakers to absorb high frequency reflections eg a hanging rug or curtains.

Otherwise keep playing them more. They may break in over time. If not you may have to consider a different amplifier or speakers. I auditioned the 602s3 when looking for my speakers and the emphasised high frequencies while exciting at first, definitely grated on my ears after an extended period at high volume.

[fawlty99]

Has anyone got experience with B&Ws and whether the sound will change? Do I need a better AV Receiver? Even if it doesn't it really doesn't bother me because I don't listen to music very loud. But I'd still like to know that they will eventually sound good even if I did want to play them loud.

Thanks.

I have 603s & yes, they probably will change in time but not that much. I suspect as Norpus has said that your AVR is running out of puff. I had the same concerns with my system when being powered by a 3805 - i.e. at high volumes it was painful. The addition of a power amp solved that problem & now it's clean no matter how hard I push it. Cleaner sound might not sound as loud as distorted sound but is far kinder to your ears - and it sounds better of course.

[spurxiii]

I have 603s & yes, they probably will change in time but not that much. I suspect as Norpus has said that your AVR is running out of puff. I had the same concerns with my system when being powered by a 3805 - i.e. at high volumes it was painful. The addition of a power amp solved that problem & now it's clean no matter how hard I push it. Cleaner sound might not sound as loud as distorted sound but is far kinder to your ears - and it sounds better of course.

I still think they are good speakers even with my setup, but they only hurt my ears at high volumes that I don't usually listen to and only for 2.1 music. I just taken some measurements with the SPL meter on at the volume I don't generally listen to but think its starting to get irritating and I've seen the peaks above 110dB. Many thanks for your answers. I'll start saving for a power amp for 2 channel stuff

[norpus]

I still think they are good speakers even with my setup, but they only hurt my ears at high volumes that I don't usually listen to and only for 2.1 music. I just taken some measurements with the SPL meter on at the volume I don't generally listen to but think its starting to get irritating and I've seen the peaks above 110dB. Many thanks for your answers. I'll start saving for a power amp for 2 channel stuff

Oh dear, that is way too loud for your system. 110dB!

Do NOT do this - you will blow tweeters for sure as the amp will clip and kill them

Those bookshelfs are not designed for over 100dB honestly - even with a great power amp upgrade they should not be pushed that hard, ever. And I'm speaking from experience here when I wasn't too bright and blew a b&W tweeter in exactly the same fashion you describe! **** my 802d would be starting to go off at that level.

[spurxiii]

Oh dear, that is way too loud for your system. 110dB!

Do NOT do this - you will blow tweeters for sure as the amp will clip and kill them

Those bookshelfs are not designed for over 100dB honestly - even with a great power amp upgrade they should not be pushed that hard, ever. And I'm speaking from experience here when I wasn't too bright and blew a b&W tweeter in exactly the same fashion you describe! **** my 802d would be starting to go off at that level.

Thanks norpus. I'll turn it way down. I think I saved them I don' think I left it that wat for very long. Just to take the meaurement for a second. So I guess my system isn't too harsh after all, because at my normal listening levels they don't sound bright or harsh or ear splitting at all.

[norpus]

So I guess my system isn't too harsh after all, because at my normal listening levels they don't sound bright or harsh or ear splitting at all.

No, the speakers are fine...

[joz]

BTW spurxiii,your title for this thread should be a lesson in its self

[RichardN]

Perhaps there's a couple of things coming into play here?

I have a Yamaha RX-V4600, so a bit more grunt and a pair of B&W603s1.

I was playing CDs via my DVD player (Pioneer 530 HDD/DVD Recorder) and found I didn't like the sound at all in 2 channel. BUT when playing DVDs (DD/DTS etc) they seem a world above the SQ I get listening to CDs.

You don't mention if you are using a dedicated CD player or your DVD for CD playback. Almost a year ago I bought a dedicated CD player (using analogue out into amp only) and this helped quite a lot.

The next logical step for me at least (and probably you) would be to add a 2 channel integrated with HT bypass as used by quite a number of people.

Another option is getting a 7 channel power amp and adding a pre-amp with HT bypass, which would be more expensive, but gives you extra power for all the other channels as well.

Either option will mean you won't be lacking in power at least and will give you far batter SQ via your B&Ws.

So IMO (in order of improved SQ)

Integrated amp with HT bypass (or pre/power combo)

Dedicated CD player

Good luck and perhaps not so loud?

[Anthony123]

good to hear some good responses on the B&W 600 Series

Im thinking of DM601 S3 for the front 2, the LCR60 S3 for the centre

a couple of in built B&W for in the ceiling for the rears and i really like the ASW 675 sub.... (its rrp $2499!!) anyone got this sub?? whats it like... i like hearing pretty base tones in my music and movies as i do tend to play them loud...

[MACCA350]

Unfortunately most CD's nowdays are compressed too much and mastered as loud as they can go, hitting 0DBFS almost constantly. DVD's on the other hand are mastered quite differently with Dolby Digital having normal dialogue set on average at -31dBFS(more info), giving the producer 31db headroom for dynamics. So the same volume setting on your receiver will make CD's louder, on average, because they are mastered louder than DVD's(until the dynamics of DVD's kick in).

To illustrate this, here are some waveforms(both are scaled the same):

DVD, DD Track(all 6channels mixed to one)

War Of The Worlds, most of Chapter 5

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MAC.../WOTWC5Mono.jpg

CD(stereo)

Alien Ant Farm-Courage

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/MAC...farmcourage.jpg

cheers

[drkrac]

good to hear some good responses on the B&W 600 Series

Im thinking of DM601 S3 for the front 2, the LCR60 S3 for the centre

a couple of in built B&W for in the ceiling for the rears and i really like the ASW 675 sub.... (its rrp $2499!!) anyone got this sub?? whats it like... i like hearing pretty base tones in my music and movies as i do tend to play them loud...

I think the general concensus on this site is that the ASW675 is probably not the best value sub at that price range. I've seen a few reviews where they imply that the 650 is better value for money. Plenty of sub threads on these boards, just do a search.

[RichardN]

good to hear some good responses on the B&W 600 Series

Im thinking of DM601 S3 for the front 2, the LCR60 S3 for the centre

a couple of in built B&W for in the ceiling for the rears and i really like the ASW 675 sub.... (its rrp $2499!!) anyone got this sub?? whats it like... i like hearing pretty base tones in my music and movies as i do tend to play them loud...

Yep, they're a great speaker at the price point, mine are almost 9 years old (series 1) and still rocking, esp. with DVD movies and music. (Led Zepp on right now, DTS, going off!) Not to say there aren't other great speakers out there and as always some people like a particular speaker and some don't

Having said all that, in the not too distant future I will be upgrading my 603s and am thinking of moving them to the rear.

Anyway, just a suggestion and as always dependant on your budget and space, why not go the 602 with the LCR600? As mentioned elsewhere, the 602 is really the pick of the bunch and IMO better value for money and if you are watching more TV/Movies than listening to music, the LCR600 is a far far better centre speaker. my 2c

[Anthony123]

problem is i dont have the room for floor standing speakers... so sorta forced to get 2 book shelves to sit on the entertainment peice!

my budget is really bout 3k on a 5.1 setup so might have to look at the B&W 650 sub.... i just like really deep bass..... i think i need to go listen to some this weekend!

[drkrac]

problem is i dont have the room for floor standing speakers... so sorta forced to get 2 book shelves to sit on the entertainment peice!

my budget is really bout 3k on a 5.1 setup so might have to look at the B&W 650 sub.... i just like really deep bass..... i think i need to go listen to some this weekend!

602's are also bookshelf speakers (although probably a bit large to sit on your entertainment cabinet). Go have a listen to the 650 and the 675 and then you can judge whether the latter justifies the extra $700 or so.