Jvc Dla Hd1 Owners Discussion Thread

[benthx]

Hello Guys

In anticipation and preparation. Here is a link to the AVS users thread for the HD1 (RS1 in the USA)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813550

Originally Posted by gregr

... here are a couple of tips for setting up your system when the RS-1's start to be delivered.

#1 When sending HD digital signals (720p, 1080i, 1080p) to the RS-1, i.e. using its HDMI inputs, use digital YCbCr signals and not digital RGB signals (i.e. from a DVI output) to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 601/Rec 709 matrices).

#2 When sending SD analog signals (480i/p, 576i/p) to the RS-1, use YPbPr signals and not RGB signals to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 709/Rec 601 matrices).

#3 Be sure to adjust the Color control with test patterns when using analog YPbPr signals to avoid over saturation.

I've informed JVC of these issues and they are working to correct them

Ok Guys its up to you the new owners to post the ins and outs of the HD1. Enjoy and lets work through any problems and help each other out.

Thanks

Ben

[The_Preacher1973]

Hello Guys

In anticipation and preparation. Here is a link to the AVS users thread for the HD1 (RS1 in the USA)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813550

Originally Posted by gregr

... here are a couple of tips for setting up your system when the RS-1's start to be delivered.

#1 When sending HD digital signals (720p, 1080i, 1080p) to the RS-1, i.e. using its HDMI inputs, use digital YCbCr signals and not digital RGB signals (i.e. from a DVI output) to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 601/Rec 709 matrices).

#2 When sending SD analog signals (480i/p, 576i/p) to the RS-1, use YPbPr signals and not RGB signals to avoid color matrix conversion errors (mixed Rec 709/Rec 601 matrices).

#3 Be sure to adjust the Color control with test patterns when using analog YPbPr signals to avoid over saturation.

I've informed JVC of these issues and they are working to correct them

Ok Guys its up to you the new owners to post the ins and outs of the HD1. Enjoy and lets work through any problems and help each other out.

Thanks

Ben

OK. So it looks like I was right about the the JVC getting the 601/709 matrices mixed up, but the solution here contradicts what cine4home were saying. They were saying the digital RGB was fine but the digital YPbPr was wrong!

Edit:

Ben, I think you should chase this up as what you have posted makes no sense at all. They're saying not to use RGB signals as it will apply the worng matrix. That's not possible. RGB doesn't need to be transcoded. YPbPr does.

I'll go out on a limb here and say cine4home are correct. You should use digital RGB not YPbPr.

[benthx]

OK. So it looks like I was right about the the JVC getting the 601/709 matrices mixed up, but the solution here contradicts what cine4home were saying. They were saying the digital RGB was fine but the digital YPbPr was wrong!

Me too

Ben

[The_Preacher1973]

Me too

Ben

See my edit above Ben.

[benthx]

See my edit above Ben.

Thanks Preacher

I will take the advice under consideration from a learned individual as yourself. I will be chasing this up in person.

Thanks

Ben

[The_Preacher1973]

Thanks Preacher

I will take the advice under consideration from a learned individual as yourself. I will be chasing this up in person.

Thanks

Ben

Ben I just posted this over on AVS:

Could someone please explain this to me?

How can the JVC use the wrong colour conversion matrix when sent an RGB 4:4:4 signal? If you're sending it RGB then the colour conversion has already been performed in the source. At that point the JVC already has a full set of chroma information and doesn't need to do any decoding at all.

Greg's post also seems to contradict what cine4home were saying in that they advised you to send the JVC digital RGB and not send it 4:2:2.

This seems to make more sense to me but I would appreciate it if someone could tell me how the JVC could transcode a 4:4:4 RGB signal into a 4:4:4 RGB signal incorrectly. It shouldn't need to be transcoded at all.

I posted in the thread where Greg posted the information originally. I bleieve the poster is Greg Rogers from Widescreen review, a very experienced reviewer, so we might all learn something from his reply.

AVS RS1 Review Thread

[Spero D.]

An update on the issue-

First, let me provide a quick update on the behavior of the color issue. I found last night that the color matrix mismatching (listed in the first post of this thread) can change from one power up to another. The digital RGB problem shifted from HD to SD signals when I powered up the projector last night. That wasn't very surprising since this is a firmware issue, which is why I continued to check it when I needed to turn the projector off and on again.

More importantly, I was notified this morning that JVC engineers in Japan have identified the cause (firmware bug) of the matrix mismatch problem. They will give me an update on Monday. I suspect the firmware can be updated through the RS-232 port on the rear of the projector, but I won't know that for sure until next week.

In answer to your first question, I consider a color matrix mismatch to be significant. It is primarily visible as green color that is either too light or too dark depending on which matrix mismatch occurs, and it also affects the hue and lightness of other colors to a lessor degree. But I am extremely sensitive and concerned about color accuracy. I'm sure there are many viewers that would not notice the inaccuracy. However, some will, and that is the reason I posted information about the issue prior to publishing my review. So for now, just avoid using analog or digital RGB signals if you want the best color accuracy, and JVC should have this corrected soon.

Unfortunately, problems like this have become almost common on new projectors and video processors, but it is how manufacturer's address these issues that really shows their customer commitment. JVC is taking care of this very professionally.

[The_Preacher1973]

Well in answer to my question, Gregr posted this:

The projector's internal processing uses YCbCr signals (as do virtually all projectors and video processors). Therefore, the projector must convert incoming RGB signals to YCbCr, process them in YCbCr, and then convert them back to RGB to drive the LCoS panels. It is the RGB-to-YCbCr and YCbCr-to-RGB conversions that provide the opportunity to use mixed (Rec 601 and Rec 709) conversion matrices.

So what he is saying is that even though the projector is receiving signals in RGB 4:4:4 format (which is what it needs to display a picture), it needs to convert them to 4:2:2 for internal processing (deinterlacing, scaling etc.) I assume this is to cut down on the processing power required to process the image. And it is this process that the JVC is messing up.

Now his solution is to send it a 4:2:2 signal so the JVC can process that and then only has to transcode it once to 4:4:4. Now this will be all fine and dandy if the error is only creeping in during the 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 stage. But there is plenty of potential for something to go wrong with just a single 4:2:2 transcode as well.

Up scaled SD signals are notorious for this. Because they ore originally encoded using REC 601, they need to be decoded using that matrix. However, once they have been upscaled, the display device sees them as an HD source and transodes them using the Rec 709 matrix. It was for this reason that I usually consider it better to send a projector RGB information. I just wasn't aware that this was introducing another level of processing into the equation. I thought the projector would be able to process the 4:4:4 information. The idea of taking 4:2:0 material, transcoding it to 4:4:4 then back down to 4:2:2 then back up to 4:4:4 sure is a wacky way of doing things.

Now Greg says that if you send it a 4:2:2 signal, then it's not a problem. (ie. that the projector is doing the single transcoding from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 correctly).

Cine4home are saying that sending it 4:2:2 it is a problem.

And as Spero has now quoted from the ownership thread, Greg is saying the problem is not consistent and can change from one power up to the next!

So what can be concluded from all this? Well in my opinion it means that at this stage the JVC-HD1 is fundamentally broken. You cannot guarantee that it will take a video signal and know how to correctly apply the chroma information in the signal. In other words it will not display the colours that you send it.

Now the good news is also contained in Spero's post. That is that apparently JVC have responded positively to the information and are working on a firmware change to address the problem.

So maybe it won't be such a bad thing to be in the second or third shipment of these in the powerbuy. It should be fixed by then.

[benthx]

...............So maybe it won't be such a bad thing to be in the second or third shipment of these in the powerbuy. It should be fixed by then.

I am certain another power buy is in the piple line. But the price will not be as low but still be very close :ph34r: :ph34r:

Thanks

Ben

[The_Preacher1973]

I am certain another power buy is in the piple line. But the price will not be as low but still be very close :ph34r: :ph34r:

Thanks

Ben

I was actually referring to those in the 1st powerbuy Ben. I believe only the 1st 5 or 6 in line will get theirs initially?

Although if Greg gets the firmware update on Monday, then hopefully JVC Aus can update them all before they're sent out.

I think this goes a long way to explaining why JVC weren't too interested in implimenting the vertical stretch initially. They had bigger things to worry about! I guess the firmware wasn't quite as far along as we all thought when they were displaying the demo models. From memory I think the previous JVC 1080P models could only accept a 1080P signal so no video processing was required. It may be taking the JVC engineers a bit of time to come to grips with it all.

Anyway, with them looking to address this issue with a firmware update hopefully this gets them into a "habit" of releasing new features/bug fixes via updates. If this projector turns out to be as popular as it's shaping out to be they may find it worth their while to keep supporting it for a while to come.

Vertical stretch would be great, but let's wait for them to get the basics right first.

[benthx]

I was actually referring to those in the 1st powerbuy Ben. I believe only the 1st 5 or 6 in line will get theirs initially?

Although if Greg gets the firmware update on Monday, then hopefully JVC Aus can update them all before they're sent out.

I think this goes a long way to explaining why JVC weren't too interested in implimenting the vertical stretch initially. They had bigger things to worry about! I guess the firmware wasn't quite as far along as we all thought when they were displaying the demo models. From memory I think the previous JVC 1080P models could only accept a 1080P signal so no video processing was required. It may be taking the JVC engineers a bit of time to come to grips with it all.

Anyway, with them looking to address this issue with a firmware update hopefully this gets them into a "habit" of releasing new features/bug fixes via updates. If this projector turns out to be as popular as it's shaping out to be they may find it worth their while to keep supporting it for a while to come.

Vertical stretch would be great, but let's wait for them to get the basics right first.

Yes Preacher as alway you are on target!

As I have stated before I will see if the HD1 implementation of vertical stretch known as "zoom", mid next week. If the zoom mode overshoots the image and some information is lost then we have a problem. But if its a little "short" then that wont be a problem for prismatic type lenses like Aussiemorphic or Prismasonic. These are adjustable in the amount of horizontal expansion they provide. Fixed units like ISCO and panamorph are set. Therefore if the stretch is not spot on then the only way immediately is via an external VP. There are some other issues that I am aware of and JVC is looking at fixing these even though the zoom mode works for SD. Some sd players upscale up to 1080i and therefore the zoom mode is locked out as the PJ senses its HD like. That is why the firmware is going to come.

In reference to the powerbuy, I am talking about a second round for those who missed out or wanted to wait till they see one in operation (shop or friends - DTV friends who will have one in their possession.) The new powerbuy price will not be as good however. I will start up a second round powerbuy once the finer details are locked in. But I expect this one to take much longer to implement, as most of the early adopters have already bought.

Thanks

Ben

[The_Preacher1973]

Well it looks like the overscan for SD issue found by cine4home has been addressed. While not completely eliminated at least it's back down to a more reasonable level (2.5%):

I normally don't test 50 Hz formats. Ekkehart (cine4home) does an excellent job covering that, and I simply don't have time to take 50 Hz measurements and do viewing evaluations at 50 Hz.

But since you've asked specifically about overscan, which is easy for me to test ... I'm measuring about 2.5% (about +/- 0.25%) overscan at each edge in 480i,480p,576i,576p using digital (HDMI input) signals. So that is about 18 pixels on the sides for all formats, and about 14 pixels top and bottom for 576i/p, and about 12 pixels top and bottom for 480i/p.

I can't explain why these numbers differ from Ekkehart's, but perhaps there is a difference in the projector's firmware. He received an HD-1 much earlier than I received an RS-1.

I don't know of any plans for JVC to provide a zero overscan mode for SD formats. There is zero overscan for 1080i/p.

[The_Preacher1973]

A quick update from Greg Rogers regarding the firmware fix for the RS1/Hd1:

I talked to JVC today. JVC Japan is still testing its fix for the problem. They obviously want to be sure no hidden issues remain. I don't expect to see it this week. I still don't know if the firmware fix will be upgradeable over the RS-232 port, but I will let you know when I know for certain. They intend to send me the fix (upgradeable firmware or whatever form it takes) when they receive it.

[benthx]

A quick update from Greg Rogers regarding the firmware fix for the RS1/Hd1:

Thanks Preacher I expect you like I will be ontop of this.

Thanks

ben

[The_Preacher1973]

Some useful info for those preparing to ceiling mount:

Mounting: If your going to use a UNIVERSAL ceiling mount you'll need M5 screws as the RS1 feet are secured with M5 threads. The threads do not start near the surface of the projector, they are about a half inch or so into the case. I found M5 x 30mm cap head screws to be perfect for attaching the ceiling mount. 20mm were a bit too short as they were only catching by a few threads.

[Gino]

Hehe... getting lonely in here Ben and Preach?

[norpus]

Hehe... getting lonely in here Ben and Preach?

Not at all - I'm into the vino Gino just reading more sparkling reviews of our new pj

Hopefully tomorrow we'll get a full report from Ben and Jus and Foggy on their first priveleged viewing

C'mon lads, we're hungry

[The_Preacher1973]

From some poor SAP on AVS. How NOT to install your HD1:

"RS-1 Woe and Joy

The woe part begins with the delivery of the RS-1. I received it 2 weeks ago and after I set it up I was adjusting the vertical lens adjustment and in the process lost the adjusting capability totally. I could spin the wheel adjuster and there was no longer any engagement with the lens. I tried it right side up (I had it mounted inverted) but that didn’t help. I notified Jason and he said they would try to replace it, might take some time. A few days later Jason suggested I try a trick of holding the lens all the way up and slowly wheeling the adjuster to see if it would catch again, maybe it was jostled too much in shipping. I remounted the projector inverted in a Chief mount with the RS-1 mounting bracket. I have a relatively low ceiling in the basement, 7’4”, so I had it flush mounted. After mounting it, I moved around to the front, climbing on my couch and proceeded to try adjusting the vertical lens adjuster. All of a sudden the projector slid backwards out of the mount and dropped down, hitting the hassock I had been standing on to mount the projector, bouncing slightly and dropping to the floor (I can still see it in slow motion!) where it hit at an angle on the front. It proceeded to smash the front panel completely off, and some cracks in the case along the sides!!!!

I felt like crying! I must have stared frozen for a couple of minutes. I checked the lens assembly and it looked ok, and for whatever reason tried plugging it in, and lo, it still worked! I remounted it (part of the problem was with a flush mount I could not really hand tighten the attachment to the mounting bracket except by sliding my hand in sideways and trying to pincer it tight. Take my word for it, it doesn’t work, especially if there is a weight imbalance between the front and the back. My old mount required you to mount it facing backwards and then spin it 180 degrees which meant it never came off accidentally.) I ended up watching a movie that night, didn’t notice any convergence problems, but of course the remote doesn’t work because the infrared(?) receptor is in the front panel."

[Foggy]

Ouch, I'm getting the same feeling as when a 2 year old kicks you where it hurts most

[Gino]

I know that feeling all too well... no, not the 2 year old kicking you, but seeing something happen in slow motion in horror, like when the lawn mower rolled over my foot on christmas eve 2004

[bort]

Are we getting excited yet? I am - fairly sure I've squeaked home in the first shipment.

Have mounts been discussed at all? I've tried to have a look thru the (several) hd1 threads, cant see anything about them. Any advice on this?

[norpus]

Today is reportedly the day the ship comes into port..

So customs clearance over weekend, JVC check them locally in Sydney Tuesday Wed, ship overnight to Melb and Thrsday next week is MY estimation of when it might arrive

Pity I'm going away Thursday for easter. Anyone want to pick it up from my doorstep? (I'd wanna know your address to get it back haha )

j/k

[Maverick]

Today is reportedly the day the ship comes into port..

So customs clearance over weekend, JVC check them locally in Sydney Tuesday Wed, ship overnight to Melb and Thrsday next week is MY estimation of when it might arrive

Pity I'm going away Thursday for easter. Anyone want to pick it up from my doorstep? (I'd wanna know your address to get it back haha )

j/k

My Aust Post contract delivery does not worry about little things like correct addresses he just dumps items where ever he likes, he does not even bother with signatures. He is a complete moron. He dumped my PS3 at someones house, did not bother with a signature, I was lucky that the people were honest and took it back to the PO. The PO then gave it back to the contractor to deliver again and this time he drives up to my house, jumps out and sticks a card in the letter box and drives away before I can get out to him.

[DuyKha]

Today is reportedly the day the ship comes into port..

So customs clearance over weekend, JVC check them locally in Sydney Tuesday Wed, ship overnight to Melb and Thrsday next week is MY estimation of when it might arrive

Pity I'm going away Thursday for easter. Anyone want to pick it up from my doorstep? (I'd wanna know your address to get it back haha )

j/k

I understand from Jenny, that they will be shipped from Syd via road freight - something to do with too much vibration on planes. Anyway, hoping they come by next Thu for the long weekend!

[Santa1503559644]

Probably/certainly mentioned somewhere before (probably in this thread), but DVD Station/Projector Geeks are advertising a DLA HD1 full price promotion with lotsa "free" stuff.