2ch Upgrade, Rotel Ba 1070 Or Nad C352 ?

[Gutty]

So yesterday i finally bit the bullet and decided i need an upgrade in the 2 channel department(music has always been my number 1 passion).

While my Yammy 1600/DVD player combo completely satisfies my needs for HT, after recently demoing some other stuff for a mates new setup, i now see what people mean by the yammy being a bit bright for 2ch. I would probably word it as a slight lack of depth....

I've done a bit of research and figured a dedecated CDP and a 2ch integrated would be the way to go...

So i march on into my local hifi shop and tell my mate i'm interested in a Nad C521BEE/C525BEE and a C352 integrated. Have a listen and am more than happy with the sound over what i've been getting at home. But when i asked about HT bypass and the way i'd be setting it up, he mentioned the fact that once i use this feature on the Nad all other inputs no longer work And i'd still have to run the CDP via the Yammy, so maybe i'd be better off simply adding a 2ch power amp to my Yammy.

Takes me into another room and showed me a Rotel setup running a BA 1070 amp. This too shat all over the Yammy for good strong 2 channel music. Now i didn't know which way to go...

Needless to say, i got all confused went home with only a C525BEE cd player under my arm.....

I liked both setups alot, price difference is not much(trying to stick to a $1K budget).

Would really appreciate any thoughts or opinions on which way to go and why ? Pro and cons of each setup ?

Thanks

Matt

[betty boop]

So yesterday i finally bit the bullet and decided i need an upgrade in the 2 channel department(music has always been my number 1 passion).

While my Yammy 1600/DVD player combo completely satisfies my needs for HT, after recently demoing some other stuff for a mates new setup, i now see what people mean by the yammy being a bit bright for 2ch. I would probably word it as a slight lack of depth....

I've done a bit of research and figured a dedecated CDP and a 2ch integrated would be the way to go...

So i march on into my local hifi shop and tell my mate i'm interested in a Nad C521BEE/C525BEE and a C352 integrated. Have a listen and am more than happy with the sound over what i've been getting at home. But when i asked about HT bypass and the way i'd be setting it up, he mentioned the fact that once i use this feature on the Nad all other inputs no longer work And i'd still have to run the CDP via the Yammy, so maybe i'd be better off simply adding a 2ch power amp to my Yammy.

Takes me into another room and showed me a Rotel setup running a BA 1070 amp. This too shat all over the Yammy for good strong 2 channel music. Now i didn't know which way to go...

Needless to say, i got all confused went home with only a C525BEE cd player under my arm.....

I liked both setups alot, price difference is not much(trying to stick to a $1K budget).

Would really appreciate any thoughts or opinions on which way to go and why ? Pro and cons of each setup ?

Thanks

Matt

matt I think the sales guy has no idea how a ht bypass works on amps with that feature. the nad amp in question does not have a ht bypass and neither the rotel. In all cases where using a 2ch integrated the front main speakers are hooked upto the 2ch integrated and for cd replay the signal does not go at all through the avr. signal path would be cd player->2ch integrated->mains speakers.

if you simply add a 2ch pwr amp to the yam AVRs unfortunately though this will give you a pwr amp upgrade you will still be using the pre stage of the yam which with avrs is what usually screws the 2ch sound.

the benefit of addign a 2ch integrated to an avr is that you get a 2ch pre and pwr upgrade in hte one hit. If you dont buy a 2ch integrated with ht bypass (from $2k upwards) then you'd need to calibrate the system for ht by feeding signal to an input on the 2ch integrated and setting levels with the 2ch integrated vol knob where you have it for typical 2ch listening level. Cehck the htfaq sticky there is a few links there re integrating 2ch and ht systems and few links re upgrades for 2ch integrated and power amps.

what is great is the benefit you have experienced with using some dedicated 2ch gear and jsut how much it can all over an avr for 2ch !

[Gutty]

matt I think the sales guy has no idea how a ht bypass works on amps with that feature. the nad amp in question does not have a ht bypass and neither the rotel. In all cases where using a 2ch integrated the front main speakers are hooked upto the 2ch integrated and for cd replay the signal does not go at all through the avr. signal path would be cd player->2ch integrated->mains speakers.

Thanks al !

I realise the Rotel is simply a power amp, what had me wanting to go this route is the slight upgrade for HT purposes aswell. But if 2ch isn't going to sound any better than the yammy already does....what's the point of that ?!

I did check the Nad out pretty well, on the back it has a "main" input that when stock is bridged to the "pre out 2". All the guys in the shop were sure i could take the bridge out and run pre outs from the AVR into the "main" input and it would bypass the volume control on the Nad for HT purposes....but they then said no other inputs would work.. BUMMER !!!!

Was trying to get around the whole twin amp calibration deal as i often have young kids in the house, and knobs often get turned

what is great is the benefit you have experienced with using some dedicated 2ch gear and jsut how much it can all over an avr for 2ch !

Yes. Most deffinately. Even running some Dianna Krall through the Yammy in pure direct mode last night using the new C525BEE was a huge difference from playing it with the DVD player.

Hmmm, still maybe some more reaserch is needed

Thoughts on going the Rotel and in a few months getting an RC 1070 pre to go with it ?? I really did like the Rotel setup...

[50mxe20]

Al put me on to this although I had seen it before.

Useful schematics though!

http://www.planetaudio.com.au/forum/index....ic=1165&hl=

[betty boop]

Thanks al !

I realise the Rotel is simply a power amp, what had me wanting to go this route is the slight upgrade for HT purposes aswell. But if 2ch isn't going to sound any better than the yammy already does....what's the point of that ?!

I did check the Nad out pretty well, on the back it has a "main" input that when stock is bridged to the "pre out 2". All the guys in the shop were sure i could take the bridge out and run pre outs from the AVR into the "main" input and it would bypass the volume control on the Nad for HT purposes....but they then said no other inputs would work.. BUMMER !!!!

Was trying to get around the whole twin amp calibration deal as i often have young kids in the house, and knobs often get turned

~

the nad integrated amps do have bridging connections that allow you to use as a power amp. But yes thats no ht bypass. you would not want to be usign a 2ch integrated in that fashion and your quite correct you might as well just buy a power amp if that is all you were goign to use it as. Adding a power amp to your yam will provide some benifit for both ht & 2ch but not the full level of benefit of using a 2ch integrated that will give you both a pre and power upgrade.

~

Thoughts on going the Rotel and in a few months getting an RC 1070 pre to go with it ?? I really did like the Rotel setup...

if you end going the rotel pre-pwr do oconsider the 2ch integrateds with ht bypass for the same money eg the arcam a90, mf a3.5, CA 840A. I believe theyre better value at this price point as with an integrated your not paying for the 2 boxes of a pre-pwr setup plus interconencts. plus ofcourse you get the convenience of the ht byapss for integration with a ht system which is a must I think if you have people other than yourself usign the combined system.

[glennb]

There are some nice integrated units out there with a good range of prices, but not sure which ones have the HT bypass function.

Arcam A65+ / A80 / A90

Cambridge Audio 540A / 640A / 840A

Marantz PM-4001 / PM-7001

[betty boop]

There are some nice integrated units out there with a good range of prices, but not sure which ones have the HT bypass function.

Arcam A65+ / A80 / A90

Cambridge Audio 540A / 640A / 840A

Marantz PM-4001 / PM-7001

the arcam a80 & a90 both have a ht bypass, any of their inputs can be setup for that facility.

the cabridge 840a is the other in the list with a htbypass, in that price range mf a3.5 is the only other that comes to mind with that facility.

[mello yello]

the arcam a80 & a90 both have a ht bypass, any of their inputs can be setup for that facility.

the cabridge 840a is the other in the list with a htbypass, in that price range mf a3.5 is the only other that comes to mind with that facility.

*Ding ding ding*

alebonaus 12000th post

....please collect your Rainbow Care Bear here al

[glennb]

the arcam a80 & a90 both have a ht bypass, any of their inputs can be setup for that facility.

the cabridge 840a is the other in the list with a htbypass, in that price range mf a3.5 is the only other that comes to mind with that facility.

I was hoping the Marantz units had HT bypass as they look pretty nice.

[betty boop]

I was hoping the Marantz units had HT bypass as they look pretty nice.

they certainly look like very nice units wacko. great to see marantz come back to 2ch with these and the sa series. Other similar gear to consider is the new 2ch denon amps and sacd/cd players again great to see them put a bit of focus 2ch wise. unfortunatel both the denon and marantz 2ch amps dont have a ht bypass.

you can still use amps without ht bypass, jsut have to be carefull in setup and also there is the inconvenience factor. Many people still go that way. I used an old pre and pwr in this fashion in the combined system for a while as well.

[Mining Man]

I've been having a look at the Denon 2 channel gear, and the one I'm interested in does have a HT bypass switch. They call it P. Direct.

From the manual (Denon PMA-1500AE):

P. DIRECT ( Power amp direct ) terminals

Source connected to this terminal is directly fed to the power amplifier set volume level by the component connected to this terminal.

NOTE:

Signals are outputted from the PRE OUT terminals even when using headphones. No signal is outputted when selecting P. DIRECT terminals.

[Gutty]

Well thanks for all the input guys ! Much appreciated.

Still not sure which way i'll go or what exactly i'll buy. Would love a MF a3.5, but i get great deals on Nad and Rotel....and the MF is kind of blowing out the budget by around 250%....

Cheers

Matt

[50mxe20]

Still not sure which way i'll go or what exactly i'll buy. Would love a MF a3.5, but i get great deals on Nad and Rotel....and the MF is kind of blowing out the budget by around 250%....

But what a way to go!

Better to be hung for a sheep than a lamb!?

[Gutty]

But what a way to go!

Better to be hung for a sheep than a lamb!?

True !

While i'd like to go the MF or CA, especially for the HT bypass, it's simply too much above budget. Not a WAF or anything like that, just my personal decision(i answer to no one ). They're about $1K more than the Rotel setup, and other stuff around home needs money spent on it too.

Have decided to go with either the NAD C372 integrated, or a Rotel RB-1070/RC-1070 combo.... have listened to both, love them both, but do you think i can make a decision ?......not if my life depended on it......Bloody HiFi gear....

If anyone has experience with either of these setups, feel free to add.

If not, i'll let ya's all know what i get when i finally pull my head out and make a choice

Cheers

Matt

[Mining Man]

~

While i'd like to go the MF or CA, especially for the HT bypass, it's simply too much above budget ...

~

Have you listened to the Denon gear at all? My local place does both Denon and MF. For the simple reason that I can't afford the insanity inducing temptation, I have yet to listen to either.

But the Denon gear certainly looks extremely well built and honestly spec'd.

It's all Eve's fault. Ever since she ate that bloody apple. How the hell are the rest of us meant to resist the fruit?

[ozcal]

True !

While i'd like to go the MF or CA, especially for the HT bypass, it's simply too much above budget. Not a WAF or anything like that, just my personal decision(i answer to no one ). They're about $1K more than the Rotel setup, and other stuff around home needs money spent on it too.

Have decided to go with either the NAD C372 integrated, or a Rotel RB-1070/RC-1070 combo.... have listened to both, love them both, but do you think i can make a decision ?......not if my life depended on it......Bloody HiFi gear....

If anyone has experience with either of these setups, feel free to add.

If not, i'll let ya's all know what i get when i finally pull my head out and make a choice

Cheers

Matt

Hi Matt.Pretty much "what AL said" but here's my 2 cent's worth.With regard to sound quality there probably isn't a huge difference in overall terms between the bigger Nad amp and the Rotel separates except in terms of tonal balance and musicality.The NAD product has a traditionally warmer sound than Rotel and would possibly be a better match for speakers that tend towards forwardness , the Rotel has a cooler more analytical sound and perhaps lacks some of the musicality of the Nad.The NAD is perhaps better suited to rockyer style music and the Rotel to Classical and small scale Jazz however all this really depends on your own ears and listening criteria.I would see if you can borrow both amps over a weekend to use at home.Try to borrow the demonsration unit as with these there is at least a chance they have been run in and therefore showing their true characters.

Gordon

[Gutty]

Have you listened to the Denon gear at all? My local place does both Denon and MF. For the simple reason that I can't afford the insanity inducing temptation, I have yet to listen to either.

But the Denon gear certainly looks extremely well built and honestly spec'd.

Nah, haven't really looked into the Denon for a few reasons.

1, The first review i read described it as "slightly bright" which is what i'm curreently getting out of my Yamaha

2, Given Denons power ratings in their AVRs i'm scepticle that thier 70W per channel will do it for me(though i see the power consumption is 310W). I don't know a whole lot about speakers, just what sounds good to me. But i do know i'm not ready to be upgrading mine even though they're over 10 years old, and i doubt they're the most efficient speakers on the market. can't find a whole lot of info on them on the net, but they're an english made prototype i believe, SG Acoustics 848. 8ohm, 45Hz-25Khz, 89Db. 2 x 8" drivers and a tweeter. (pics in sig)

I say i don't think they're too efficient because they don't really start to sound good until you crank them up a bit. maybe why my music seems to lack a bit of "depth/punch" in the bass department at lower volumes when using the Yammy ?

Aside from that, the Denon looks great, and i can get a deal on one just like the Rotel and NAD stuff. Maybe worth a look.....

This is all kind of new to me, specs & whatnot. I've always loved my music, but always just bought stuff reccomended to me by a mate in the business.

Hi Matt.Pretty much "what AL said" but here's my 2 cent's worth.With regard to sound quality there probably isn't a huge difference in overall terms between the bigger Nad amp and the Rotel separates except in terms of tonal balance and musicality.The NAD product has a traditionally warmer sound than Rotel and would possibly be a better match for speakers that tend towards forwardness , the Rotel has a cooler more analytical sound and perhaps lacks some of the musicality of the Nad.The NAD is perhaps better suited to rockyer style music and the Rotel to Classical and small scale Jazz however all this really depends on your own ears and listening criteria.I would see if you can borrow both amps over a weekend to use at home.Try to borrow the demonsration unit as with these there is at least a chance they have been run in and therefore showing their true characters.

Gordon

After listening, i think i'd agree with that pretty much. The NAD sounded "smoother" yet not at all dull, the Rotel a bit "crisper" yet still not lacking bass. But i'm not sure which i prefer....

As for my music taste, it varies from Dianna Krall/Jeff Buckley type stuff to heavier stuff like Soundgarden/Audioslave, Foo Fighters, Primus, Janes Addiction.....the list goes on.

Guess i really should get my speakers down the shop, or better yet, borrow the 2 main suspects for a weekend at home, but given these aren't exactly big ticket items for this particular shop, i'm not too sure on how keen they'd be about that.

Ahh, soooo confusing !

Anyway, cheers for your input guys. Very much appreciated

[betty boop]

~

Guess i really should get my speakers down the shop, or better yet, borrow the 2 main suspects for a weekend at home, but given these aren't exactly big ticket items for this particular shop, i'm not too sure on how keen they'd be about that.

Ahh, soooo confusing !

Anyway, cheers for your input guys. Very much appreciated

that would be the best thing to do gutty. with your speakers youd soon know which feels better or right to your ears. If a home borrow of the amps are not a possiblity, take yoru speakers in, I really think it would be worth it as sounds you have some unique speakers that might perhaps give a different result to what you might have been demoing with instore.

[ozcal]

Nah, haven't really looked into the Denon for a few reasons.

1, The first review i read described it as "slightly bright" which is what i'm curreently getting out of my Yamaha

2, Given Denons power ratings in their AVRs i'm scepticle that thier 70W per channel will do it for me(though i see the power consumption is 310W). I don't know a whole lot about speakers, just what sounds good to me. But i do know i'm not ready to be upgrading mine even though they're over 10 years old, and i doubt they're the most efficient speakers on the market. can't find a whole lot of info on them on the net, but they're an english made prototype i believe, SG Acoustics 848. 8ohm, 45Hz-25Khz, 89Db. 2 x 8" drivers and a tweeter. (pics in sig)

I say i don't think they're too efficient because they don't really start to sound good until you crank them up a bit. maybe why my music seems to lack a bit of "depth/punch" in the bass department at lower volumes when using the Yammy ?

Aside from that, the Denon looks great, and i can get a deal on one just like the Rotel and NAD stuff. Maybe worth a look.....

This is all kind of new to me, specs & whatnot. I've always loved my music, but always just bought stuff reccomended to me by a mate in the business.

After listening, i think i'd agree with that pretty much. The NAD sounded "smoother" yet not at all dull, the Rotel a bit "crisper" yet still not lacking bass. But i'm not sure which i prefer....

As for my music taste, it varies from Dianna Krall/Jeff Buckley type stuff to heavier stuff like Soundgarden/Audioslave, Foo Fighters, Primus, Janes Addiction.....the list goes on.

Guess i really should get my speakers down the shop, or better yet, borrow the 2 main suspects for a weekend at home, but given these aren't exactly big ticket items for this particular shop, i'm not too sure on how keen they'd be about that.

Ahh, soooo confusing !

Anyway, cheers for your input guys. Very much appreciated

Generally a preference will develope with a bit more listening or ,perhaps ,neither is really totally 'floating your boat' and you need to take the time to listen to something a bit better again to give you a bit of perspective , something like a secondhand Musical Fidelity or Cyrus or Arcam amp.

Gordon

[davidward]

Nah, haven't really looked into the Denon for a few reasons.

1, The first review i read described it as "slightly bright" which is what i'm curreently getting out of my Yamaha

2, Given Denons power ratings in their AVRs i'm scepticle that thier 70W per channel will do it for me(though i see the power consumption is 310W). I don't know a whole lot about speakers, just what sounds good to me. But i do know i'm not ready to be upgrading mine even though they're over 10 years old, and i doubt they're the most efficient speakers on the market. can't find a whole lot of info on them on the net, but they're an english made prototype i believe, SG Acoustics 848. 8ohm, 45Hz-25Khz, 89Db. 2 x 8" drivers and a tweeter. (pics in sig)

I say i don't think they're too efficient because they don't really start to sound good until you crank them up a bit. maybe why my music seems to lack a bit of "depth/punch" in the bass department at lower volumes when using the Yammy ?

Aside from that, the Denon looks great, and i can get a deal on one just like the Rotel and NAD stuff. Maybe worth a look.....

This is all kind of new to me, specs & whatnot. I've always loved my music, but always just bought stuff reccomended to me by a mate in the business.

After listening, i think i'd agree with that pretty much. The NAD sounded "smoother" yet not at all dull, the Rotel a bit "crisper" yet still not lacking bass. But i'm not sure which i prefer....

As for my music taste, it varies from Dianna Krall/Jeff Buckley type stuff to heavier stuff like Soundgarden/Audioslave, Foo Fighters, Primus, Janes Addiction.....the list goes on.

Guess i really should get my speakers down the shop, or better yet, borrow the 2 main suspects for a weekend at home, but given these aren't exactly big ticket items for this particular shop, i'm not too sure on how keen they'd be about that.

Ahh, soooo confusing !

Anyway, cheers for your input guys. Very much appreciated

Don't be put off by asking to demo products that aren't big ticket items. I spent quite a bit a time in Simply Hi Fi in Perth asking to demo products they knew i was never able to purchase, they encouraged me to borrow speaker cable & interconnects to try in my system (budget items by their standards) & offered plenty of advice, all much appreciated considering my modest budget, but as a result I'll go back when I'm ready to purchase something. The store your dealing with should be just as happy to deal with people with entry level budgets as well as the big spendors. Thats what keeps people coming back

[ozcal]

Don't be put off by asking to demo products that aren't big ticket items. I spent quite a bit a time in Simply Hi Fi in Perth asking to demo products they knew i was never able to purchase, they encouraged me to borrow speaker cable & interconnects to try in my system (budget items by their standards) & offered plenty of advice, all much appreciated considering my modest budget, but as a result I'll go back when I'm ready to purchase something. The store your dealing with should be just as happy to deal with people with entry level budgets as well as the big spendors. Thats what keeps people coming back

Absolutely, great stores take the time to foster a relationship with their customers ,todays Nad or HK buyer could be tommorows Krell or Linn buyer and even if that's not the case word of mouth about great service is worth $1000's of dollars of advertising.

Gordon

[Guest divepass]

Purchased a MF 3.5 from Simply Hi Fi in Perth for $1900 delivered to Sydney.

Speak to Pierre, he is very helpful.

The unit itself is superb.

Have my Marantz SA11si and Rega P3 running into it and my NAD receiver is fed into the HT bypass.

The MF 3.5 drives my Sonique 7.5's very,very loud.

Have played numerous SACD's and LP's through it and it delivers a sound to die for.Plenty of bass authority and mid's and hi's are very smooth.

Spoke to the MF distributor here in Sydney and they are no longer importing them here any more. Len Wallis has run out of stock as well here in Sydney.

You will no be disappointed if you purchase this amp.

Regards

Divepass

[betty boop]

Purchased a MF 3.5 from Simply Hi Fi in Perth for $1900 delivered to Sydney.

Speak to Pierre, he is very helpful.

The unit itself is superb.

Have my Marantz SA11si and Rega P3 running into it and my NAD receiver is fed into the HT bypass.

The MF 3.5 drives my Sonique 7.5's very,very loud.

Have played numerous SACD's and LP's through it and it delivers a sound to die for.Plenty of bass authority and mid's and hi's are very smooth.

Spoke to the MF distributor here in Sydney and they are no longer importing them here any more. Len Wallis has run out of stock as well here in Sydney.

You will no be disappointed if you purchase this amp.

Regards

Divepass

good to hear the a3.5 is doing a great job in your syste and your happy with it divepass,

and a nice system you have there in the marantz sa-11, rega TT and the soniques to go with it

[Gutty]

Purchased a MF 3.5 from Simply Hi Fi in Perth for $1900 delivered to Sydney.

That's by far the cheapest i've ever seen this unit. Very tempting indeed, especially having the HT bypass, but still a whole lot more than i can get the Rotel duo or NAD for....

Decisions, decisions....

Thanks

Matt

[Gutty]

Just a follow up on my MidFi upgrade for anyone interested.

Went and did some more auditioning last night, this time with some of my own gear.

For all setups a NAD C542 CD player was used, as this is as close as they had for demo purposes to my NAD 525BEE.

Speakers were Orpheus Aurora 3's, then my SG Acoustics.(just wanted a comparison for the sake of it)

Sample music was Norah Jones, Primus and Dire straits.

First was Rotel RB-1070 amp(2x130W) and RC-1070 pre. I've heard this setup before and liked it alot. Very pleasing to my ears via the Aurora 3's.

Then we hooked up the rotel amp to my Yamaha RX-V1600 and ran that in pure direct mode. Surprisingly VERY similar to the Rotel seperates IMO.

Next was the NAD 372 integrated. Nice, but just kind of lacking something. I've heard this setup previous aswell, and i can understand why people say you could listen to it all day long. Not fatiguing at all. It IS very good, just not as sharp as the previous 2 setups, and not as tight in the base "IMO". Almost like it was slightly muffled....

At this point i was thinking i liked the Yamaha/Rotel combo the most($ for $ compared to the 1070 pre, and can't afford the 1090 pre right now), so we set that up again to run back to back with the NAD(Norah Jones only).

Last and deffinately least we plugged the speakers directly into the Yamaha. FLAT !!! is about the only way to describe it. It was lacking everywhere. Nice and clear(bright ?) but no oomf or kick in the mid or base.

I really wanted to demo the Rotel RB-1080(2x200W) on my Yammy, but they didn't have one in stock. I asked for an opinion as to the benefit i might get from the 1080 over the 1070 at my listening levels. General opinion was "slight", but nothing like the step up i'd just listened to, and possibly not worth the extra $$.

So at the end of the session, i was extremely surprised at the sound the Yammy could produce given some extra grunt. Even more surprising was the comparison between the Aurora 3's and my 10 year old Pommy made SG Acoustics. But that's another story. Lets just say i won't be shopping for speakers any time soon.

I'd budgeted for a 1080, but after much i ended up ordering a Rotel RMB-1075(5x120W) and hope i've made a good decision. If this gives me improvments in HT as much as the 1070 did in 2ch, i'll be one very happy man next week.

Future plans maybe an RB 1080/RC 1090 for the fronts(and 2ch) and use the 1075 for the remaining 5 when i go a 7.1 setup. But that's a while off now.

I do have one question for anyone that would like to answer. The purchase of the 1075 means a reshuffle of my equipment. The Yamaha will be moved up to the next shelf(see pics in sig) and lose alot of breathing room.

Is it going to run anywhere near as hot only being used as a pre-pro and not actually driving any speakers ?

Hope all that typing was enjoyed by atleast one person....

Thanks

Matt

Edit: Please don't take this post the wrong way. I DEFFINATELY see a 2ch pre in my future, but i doubt what i'm after was going to fit my current budget.