gobberon Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I'm curious. We have a lot of knowledgeable folk on the forum and it would be interesting to hear what they think and their choices. If you have the time put down your pros and cons for your decision. Heres mine ... Mitsubishi HC5000 Pros Total cost of ownership is low, lamps are cheap and 3000/5000 hrs C2fine panels H/V Lens shift Motorised lens Zoom range Cheap from Pricejapan Cons C2fine panels - not proven yet CIH options not clear Not cheap here 1st generation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodN Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Well I put down the JVC however a well callibrated G70 or G90 would be an awesome setup and probably outperform the JVC in some areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norpus Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Well I put down the JVC however a well callibrated G70 or G90 would be an awesome setup and probably outperform the JVC in some areas. So your next pj will be..... a Sony G series or a JVC nobby? PS I had put down JVC also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodN Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 So your next pj will be..... a Sony G series or a JVC nobby?PS I had put down JVC also I tell ya what Norps there was a few G70's floating around last year and if one was to pop itself up again around tax time this year I'd be as torn between the two choices as a 17yr old on prom night. (you can now get HDMI input cards for the G70's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djOS Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 You forgot: I'm curious. We have a lot of knowledgeable folk on the forum and it would be interesting to hear what they think and their choices.If you have the time put down your pros and cons for your decision. Heres mine ... Mitsubishi HC5000 Pros Total cost of ownership is low, lamps are cheap and 3000/5000 hrs C2fine panels H/V Lens shift Motorised lens Zoom range Silicon Optix HQV ReonVX Video Processor Cheap from Pricejapan Cons C2fine panels - not proven yet (Seriously, its an evolution of proven LCD Technology - this is like saying 9th Gen plasmas aren't proven tech!) CIH options not clear Most ppl wont care Not cheap here (Relative to the other 1080p PJ's it is!!!) 1st generation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The only thing you can guarantee is that all of these projectors will seem like dinasours this time next year. Such are the travails of HT enthusiasts. From my position, all of these projectors suffer from one common ailment: low lumens output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobberon Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 You forgot: Djos, By C2fine not proven = claims of extended life due to inorganic panels not proven yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djOS Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Djos,By C2fine not proven = claims of extended life due to inorganic panels not proven yet. They are Conventional LCD panels minus any organic elements - its a materials change not a radical redesign and the end result will be that the panels dont start breaking down in the manner the the Current PolySci LCD panels do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Preacher1973 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I've thrown a vote in for CRT. (duh!) I must admit though that the JVC made me think twice which is more than I can say about any of the other projectors on the list. The reason I stayed with CRT is that as mentioned, the JVC is the only digital at a reasonable price going around that can give a CRT a run for its money with regards to black level and contrast ratio. But Crescendo Systems have just released their new transcoder with gamma adjustment for CRT's in the last week or so. It was a prototype of this device that DarinP2 used on the Sony G70 which he then measured at 700,000:1. So there's life in the old god yet! I'd also like to hear reports of the JVC in the wild to see how its quality control, reliability and service go. All unknowns at this point. As such my answer may be different in 6 months time! Since I'm going to be extremely outnumbered here (I think I've only got Gino still in the trenches with me since Nobby's gone native on us) I'm going to go for the "Shock and Awe" approach - throw every conventional weapon we have only keeping our weapons of mass destruction (Blendzilla) in reserve! So for the CRT camp we have: Pros: Highest on/off contrast ratio - 700,000:1 with a $200 modification to your signal path. Perfect convergence - for those of us co-ordinated enough to drag red and blue dots over the top of green ones ) Cost - around half the price of the JVC for a good LC 8" which will still resolve 1080P when viewing 2.35:1 material if you "clip" the signal first thus reducing the bandwidth required. And if you work it out on a cost/kg basis they're dirt cheap compared with digitals! Reliability - these were $60,000 industrial grade items when new. If something costs as much as a car - owners expected it should last like one! Service - If you buy from a CRT "Dealer" like Curt Palme, you get a 12 month warranty and lifetime support for the set. CRT's can be repaired at the board level - it's more like fixing a PC. Image Consistency - What's the point in calibrating a digital PJ when it's brightness is goin to be 20% less next week? The UHP bulbs used in most of the digitals in the above list degrade along a logarithmic scale. They'll have lost 20% of their inital brightness by 100 hours and about 35% by 500 hours. If they last that long. Maximum Sharpness with Multiple Resolutions - CRT's don't have a native resolution. They'll display what you send them. Therefore there's no scaling to reduce the sharpness of the picture. Thus while a digital PJ will be sharper than a CRT if the source material is a perfect match for the panel, in all other situations a CRT will be sharper. Satisfaction/Achievement - after wrestling with service menus, adjusting magnetic fields, risking life and limb by adjusting things within close proximity of lethal voltages, there's a tremendous amount of satisfaction to be gained when you actually mange to get a CRT to project a picture. Reduced Visibilty of Digital Artifacts - Not only do they note suffer from SDE and RBE, they also mask digital compression artifacts such as macro blocking, mosquitio noise and posterization. As for the disadvantages: Light Output - These puppies are not very bright. They'll only put out about 240 ANSI lumens. This means that you are very limited to what screen size you can run. This limitation is what may eventually push me over to digital. Noise - A lot of these beasts use old fans - and lots of them! You may need to build a hush box or replace the older style fans with newer silent PC types. Size/weight - These things are big - 1m long, 70 cm wide, 45 cm high and weighing up to 100 kg. Discrete they are not. Many a potential CRT purchase has been terminated due to a very low Wife Acceptance Factor. Setup/Complexity - These are not exactly plug and play. You need to learn a lot about them before you can set them up for the 1st time. Oh, and touch the wrong thing and you may die. Hopefully there are enough disadvantages on that list to discourage anyone from bidding on that G70 currently up on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 As good as they are, I don't think CRT projectors are a viable alternative for the vast majority of home theatres these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodN Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Hey Preach I haven't *quite* gone native yet, there's still a 3 eyed monster on my roof! The major 2 things that would take me off the reservation would be black levels and 1080/24p inputs. Got a link to this new transcoder? Looks interesting. I believe moome has some good projector input cards with gamma adjustment going these days too. But Crescendo Systems have just released their new transcoder with gamma adjustment for CRT's in the last week or so. It was a prototype of this device that DarinP2 used on the Sony G70 which he then measured at 700,000:1. So there's life in the old god yet! As good as they are, I don't think CRT projectors are a viable alternative for the vast majority of home theatres these days. Depends on what you mean by HT I guess, certainly not an option for the nuevo riche plasma with bose types! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Preacher1973 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Hey Preach I haven't *quite* gone native yet, there's still a 3 eyed monster on my roof! The major 2 things that would take me off the reservation would be black levels and 1080/24p inputs. Well black levels are certainly still better on CRT's and with the new transcoder you can lower your black level and maintain excellent shadow detail. As for 1080/24P, CRT's have been run at 72 hz for film for years. Got a link to this new transcoder? Looks interesting. I believe moome has some good projector input cards with gamma adjustment going these days too. Here it is: RTC2200 It's halfway down the page. Depends on what you mean by HT I guess, certainly not an option for the nuevo riche plasma with bose types! Ouch! Welcome back nobby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gino Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 You're right there Preacher... I'll be CRT supporter 2 Nice summary of CRT, but the shortcomings well.. -blending or stacking can give you more light and larger screens -noise can be fixed as you said (but over here I find the noise of my guests chins hitting the floor more distracting) -size/weight, well thats a plus, major wow factor and inbuilt security system -setup/complexity, well thats all the fun isnt it?! More advantages I believe are tubes last for 10000+ hours, not sure on bulbs lifespan exactly, and these things can be tweaked and modded to keep getting more from them, and you just cant beat this organic, natural, film like quality yet with a digital. This single last advantage is what digitals will have to overcome for me to make the switch. And until any of you who have seen what I am really talking about here, you will never understand. I'll happily take any digital challengers against my blendzilla. I will not be held responsible for those who leave crying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gino Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Oh, and here are some screenshots to try and show what I mean by the natural film like quality that can't be duplicated with a digital yet King Kong Batman Begins And look what CRT does with digital 3D animation... really gives it an organic feel Ant Bully 1 Ant Bully 2 Note: These pics taken from Clarence's G90 on 9' wide screen, or Cliff's blended G90's on 12' wide screen Will put mine up soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Preacher1973 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 You're right there Preacher... I'll be CRT supporter 2 Praise the Lord and pass the glycol! CRT- always outnumbered, never "out gunned". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Depends on what you mean by HT I guess, certainly not an option for the nuevo riche plasma with bose types! Nice gross generalization there. Who knew HT attracted so many snobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobberon Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 They are Conventional LCD panels minus any organic elements - its a materials change not a radical redesign and the end result will be that the panels dont start breaking down in the manner the the Current PolySci LCD panels do. ... well that depends on who's literature you read. Anyhow, in essence that is what I meant, although its a different panel the extended life has yet to be proven. Unless Epson release any data on tests done on the panels, then all we have are claims form the maker. Mind you I haven't done a lot of research so I may be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c912039 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 ...Note: These pics taken from Clarence's G90 on 9' wide screen, or Cliff's blended G90's on 12' wide screen Will put mine up soon So when did the cost of 2 blended G90's compare with a Mits. HC5000 or JVC HD1? Pointless discussion really. You also forgot another benefit that the modern digital projectors provide, which you would find hard to match with your CRT's - the flexibility to place the digital projecter wherever you want in your room, dedicated or multi-functional. I'm curious. We have a lot of knowledgeable folk on the forum and it would be interesting to hear what they think and their choices.If you have the time put down your pros and cons for your decision. Heres mine ... Mitsubishi HC5000 Pros Total cost of ownership is low, lamps are cheap and 3000/5000 hrs C2fine panels H/V Lens shift Motorised lens Zoom range Cheap from Pricejapan Cons C2fine panels - not proven yet CIH options not clear Not cheap here 1st generation Also, the fill-rate of LCD's - even the latest generation are still much lower than DLP or LCos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Preacher1973 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Nice gross generalization there. Who knew HT attracted so many snobs. I think nobby was really trying to say that a CRT will never appeal to those who put style before substance (eg.Bose). I think this is a reasonable position of an "enthusiast" to take. I'm sure all those tools that fit out their Hyundai Excels with big wheels, spoilers and doof doof stereos get about the same level of respect from true car enthusiasts. The Projector forum here is definitely not snobby. Whether someone has a $995 Benq W100 or a $100K blended CRT setup doesn't really matter. I've never seen someone made to feel "small" or unwelcome because their projector doesn't "measure up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Preacher1973 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 So when did the cost of 2 blended G90's compare with a Mits. HC5000 or JVC HD1?Pointless discussion really. Agreed. That's why I specifically excluded that option in my original post. But still, when you have a setup as impressive as that, you can't blame a guy from wanting to put it on show once in a while! I'll never have something like that but I still enjoy looking at the screen shots and enjoying a few "Wouldn't it be nice" thoughts. You also forgot another benefit that the modern digital projectors provide, which you would find hard to match with your CRT's - the flexibility to place the digital projecter wherever you want in your room, dedicated or multi-functional. Yes your right. I should have put that in the cons collumn. CRT's are a fixed throw for a particular screen width. Your only option is floor or ceiling. Still I did mention that they can electrocute you when you try and set them up - that's probably enough of a negative for a lot of people! Lets face it, not many people are going to chose the CRT option these days. Gino and I are just having a bit of fun. The real choices will be either HC5000 or Panny AE1000. Or JVC HD1 versus Sony Pearl. Or stay with something like a Benq 8720. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c912039 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I think nobby was really trying to say that a CRT will never appeal to those who put style before substance (eg.Bose).I think this is a reasonable position of an "enthusiast" to take. I'm sure all those tools that fit out their Hyundai Excels with big wheels, spoilers and doof doof stereos get about the same level of respect from true car enthusiasts. The Projector forum here is definitely not snobby. Whether someone has a $995 Benq W100 or a $100K blended CRT setup doesn't really matter. I've never seen someone made to feel "small" or unwelcome because their projector doesn't "measure up". I disagree, some of the original comments above, whilst veiled, definately suggest elites tones. In summing up the general thrust of some of the comments so-far, is that you can't call yourself an enthusiast if you havent got a CRT setup, and the 'cheap' digital projectors will never be able to compete. Reminds me of the early days of CD vs Vinyl - same sort of elitist arguments were trotted out back then... Each technology has its pluss and minuses, and there is a place for each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissara Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I here very good reviews about the Epson 1080p - the reviews by the way aren't quite online yet, but will be soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I disagree,some of the original comments above, whilst veiled, definately suggest elites tones. In summing up the general thrust of some of the comments so-far, is that you can't call yourself an enthusiast if you havent got a CRT setup, and the 'cheap' digital projectors will never be able to compete. Reminds me of the early days of CD vs Vinyl - same sort of elitist arguments were trotted out back then... Each technology has its pluss and minuses, and there is a place for each. being a non enthusiast in regards PJs, but havign been fortunate to expereience nobby's crt, norpus' dlp, my cousins topflite dlp from a couple of years back would ratehr do without than get a cheap digital lcd to be honest. and not being elitiest. and not sure nobbys crt was a hugely expensive affair anyways. If you remember there was this guy selling his nec crt for $1,100 http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=43983 infact it still appears for sale. hardly elitest snobbery to own one I would think. perhaps it is a bit like the cd vs vinyl thing. I own both. plus a few other formats, and yeah agree theres plusses and minus with all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Preacher1973 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I disagree,some of the original comments above, whilst veiled, definately suggest elites tones. In summing up the general thrust of some of the comments so-far, is that you can't call yourself an enthusiast if you havent got a CRT setup, and the 'cheap' digital projectors will never be able to compete. The really funny thing is that the guy accused of being snobby and by implication supposedly believing that a digital can never compete voted for the JVC. What he responded to was a claim that CRT's don't have a place in a modern home theatre. Each technology has its pluss and minuses, and there is a place for each. Exactly. And that's what I did. I listed pro's and cons as per the original posters request. If those positives sound elitist then so be it. Have a look at the negatives collumn. I don't think I glossed over anything much there. Oh, and in all my posts in this forum with people looking for buying advice I have never advised them to get a CRT. and not being elitiest. and not sure nobbys crt was a hugely expensive affair anyways.If you remember there was this guy selling his nec crt for $1,100 http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=43983 infact it still appears for sale. hardly elitest snobbery to own one I would think. My NEC cost me $160. I could have bought a Sony 1020 CRT instead for $100 but I'm way too snobby for something like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c912039 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 The really funny thing is that the guy accused of being snobby and by implication supposedly believing that a digital can never compete voted for the JVC. WHERE exactly, did I mention WHO was being 'snobby'? What he responded to was a claim that CRT's don't have a place in a modern home theatre. Exactly. And that's what I did. I listed pro's and cons as per the original posters request. If those positives sound elitist then so be it. Have a look at the negatives collumn. I don't think I glossed over anything much there. Yep you did, AND I wasnt referring to your posts - I think you have been the only member posting a balanced pro and con list. Oh, and in all my posts in this forum with people looking for buying advice I have never advised them to get a CRT.My NEC cost me $160. I could have bought a Sony 1020 CRT instead for $100 but I'm way too snobby for something like that! Perhaps its comments like these - ...I'll happily take any digital challengers against my blendzilla. I will not be held responsible for those who leave crying. CRT- always outnumbered, never "out gunned". tongue.gif I think this is a reasonable position of an "enthusiast" to take. I'm sure all those tools that fit out their Hyundai Excels with big wheels, spoilers and doof doof stereos get about the same level of respect from true car enthusiasts. So unles I spend a HUGE amount of money on PJ setup, OR I buy a CRT (at any price), I wont get the same level of respect? I agree that your lists of pros and cons show ar emore balanced viewpoint, however, the comments I have quotted from just this thread alone also show a hint of 'elitism' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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