shiny_car Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 hey i'm still quite new to HT, and only recently acquired a 'completed' setup of speakers, having started with 'mains', then added sub, then surrounds, and finally a centre. what i'm wanting are some tips on speaker positions and in particular angles (ie: toe-in) of not only fronts, but also surrounds. also height of the rears. and not only for DVD/movies, but also SACD/DVD-A. my understanding is: *toe-in fronts: 'points of a triangle' come to mind, but i've read that for HT, less toe-in is better as opposed to music *toe-in rears: for a more 'diffuse' sound, toe-in isn't that necessary; for SACD/DVD-A it is more important *speaker height of rears should be above 'ear level' for DVD no doubt it will vary for different speakers (and how diffuse their sound is) and different rooms. but i'm interested to hear of personal experiences and potential pitfalls. my current setup: *fairly square room, about 5x4m (actually more like the limb of an L-shaped room) *B&W 704 mains *(matching) B&W HTM7 centre *B&W 601 S3 rears (currently on 600mm stands placing tweeter height ~same as front) *JBL E250 12" active sub the fronts are 'toed-in' about 40 degrees at the moment (not sure on how to conventionally describe this angle; 0 degrees is straight-on), and the rears similarly. my seating position is way, way back, close to the rears (distance to fronts is ~3.2m and rears is ~1.2m). i'm happy with the sound at the moment (so arguably just leave it like this), and have done 'some' experimenting. any thoughts?
shiny_car Posted October 28, 2004 Author Posted October 28, 2004 does no-one here have HT speakers? i'm hoping for any general kinda discussion here. maybe explain your setup and whether you think there are positives or weaknesses about it.
Spearmint Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 does no-one here have HT speakers? i'm hoping for any general kinda discussion here. maybe explain your setup and whether you think there are positives or weaknesses about it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Shiny car, it is amazing how we have so called experts on this forum, who like to preach how much experience they have, and after 30+ views of your posts no one has even offered some advice. I wonder if it is because they are worried about all the laughing that goes on. Anyway, check this SITE out, it has some excellent info, and in particular this PAGE on layout, and this PAGE re toe in or not.
dvduser Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 Check out www.dolby.com for really good primers for HT setups. I've got my fromts toe-d in, but so on each side the imaginary audio line goes past your ears and not aligned s a 40 degree triangle. i.e. if you have an armchair aim the speakers so they point over the armrests.
RodN Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 I missed this thread - but better late than never eh? Toe-in is really relative to the off-axis characteristics of your speakers. So if they're 'good' speakers they should come with instructions, yes that's right instructions! (Well mine did anyway ) So the idea is that you want to be in the 'sweet spot' of your speakers radiation pattern - some require you to be quite close to this spot (but if you are they'll usually sound alot better) while others (like mine) don't which is where the idea of 'off-axis' comes from. The further off-axis that you go the more you are less likely to hear what was supposed to be heard. Even for mine I want to be in the dead centre. The technique to toe-in is really just part of your whole setup. Get a nice simple track without too much on it that you like to listen and get someone else to move your speakers around for you and a blindfold. Basically from that point the person can move the speaker within your constraints while you listen and find the sweet spot. This is usually signalled with improved imaging (easy to hear), depth (depends on quality of system) and accuracy (easy to hear). There are all sorts of things that should be determined in the same session like distance from side and rear walls, listening to one speaker at a time and so on but my post is getting too long. As for surrounds I'll leave that for someone else CHeers hope it helps a bit.
DigitalObserver Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 does no-one here have HT speakers? i'm hoping for any general kinda discussion here. maybe explain your setup and whether you think there are positives or weaknesses about it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Worth a read here for further background information. Dolby info edit. Sorry DVDUSER you posted this link while I was off looking! Too slow again.........
ijd Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 does no-one here have HT speakers? .lol. i'm hoping for any general kinda discussion here. maybe explain your setup and whether you think there are positives or weaknesses about it. Sorry about the delayed response, Shiny ... I was trying to read some other threads before rambling in this one. Anyway, you now have some links to trawl ... so I can keep this brief: Wherever possible, follow the speaker manufacturers recommendations! They not only tested their kit but also designed it to work best in a particular environment/setup. FWIW, my ProAc bookshelf mains are set up with no toe-in - this gives me a good sweet-spot image but also allows others to enjoy at the same time. My KEF surrounds are also mounted as per manufacturer's reco - bolted through the plasterboard to a concrete wall and about 0.5m above seated head-height, toed-in to about 1m in front of my sweet spot. The sound is absolutely excellent for both stereo CD and multi-channel DVD-A (except for lack of bass with my current speaker choices). Ian
surrealgenesis Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 My Orpheus don't like toe in. Something that did make a big difference, to my ear at least, was the height of the centre channel. Had it down low as dictated by furniture and it sounded ok for movies. Raised it and it made a wonderful difference for music. My humble observations.
dvduser Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 Something that did make a big difference, to my ear at least, was the height of the centre channel. Had it down low as dictated by furniture and it sounded ok for movies. Raised it and it made a wonderful difference for music Agree with that, they recommend that the tweeters for the fronts and centre be nearly equal in height and also level with your ears.
shiny_car Posted October 28, 2004 Author Posted October 28, 2004 whoa, all these replies flooded in within a couple hours. thanks guys, i have some interesting reading to do.
dvduser Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 Patience is all you need, some people can't answer till the night but some like myself are able to do it during the day.
AV GUY MELBOURNE Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 for speakers now days i generally dont toe. Toe in is great if you have a central seating position but if you have couches that are no central you probably wont get the proper sound dispertion. Cinemas dont toe in there speakers. Toe in generally works very good in stereo only applications come on and give me your ridicule im waiting for it and love it
shiny_car Posted October 28, 2004 Author Posted October 28, 2004 Patience is all you need <{POST_SNAPBACK}> hee,hee, yeah, that's true. but as spearmint pointed out, there were heaps of 'views' but no 'replies' until today. AVGM: it's ok. i take on board all offers of advice and knowledge, but have to process them in a manner to use to my advantage. i throw out the obvious garbage, use the good stuff to modify my understanding, and question the questionable.
Spearmint Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 for speakers now days i generally dont toe.Toe in is great if you have a central seating position but if you have couches that are no central you probably wont get the proper sound dispertion. Cinemas dont toe in there speakers. Toe in generally works very good in stereo only applications come on and give me your ridicule im waiting for it and love it <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I tend to follow the same principles AVG, as nearly all the installs I do (very few, i.e. not many, depends on how much $ etc) are for HT primary, & stereo secondary.
AV GUY MELBOURNE Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 Patience is all you need <{POST_SNAPBACK}> hee,hee, yeah, that's true. but as spearmint pointed out, there were heaps of 'views' but no 'replies' until today. AVGM: it's ok. i take on board all offers of advice and knowledge, but have to process them in a manner to use to my advantage. i throw out the obvious garbage, use the good stuff to modify my understanding, and question the questionable. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> would you like to try some different cables. i would love to try an organize some for you to try. Where abouts r u?
shiny_car Posted October 28, 2004 Author Posted October 28, 2004 would you like to try some different cables. i would love to try an organize some for you to try. Where abouts r u? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks for the offer, but 'no thanks'. don't worry, i AM a firm believer that cables can make a difference, and i do use 'expensive' cables (within reason). and i am currently very happy with my cables. but i don't think they make huge differences, that's all; nor am i so pedantic/fanatical that i wish to persue the 'perfect' cable for my setup.
Spearmint Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 would you like to try some different cables. i would love to try an organize some for you to try. Where abouts r u? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey AVG, if you check the left side of his post it has his location listed... Not sure where you are from though From: Melbounre, Victoria, Australia
AV GUY MELBOURNE Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 would you like to try some different cables. i would love to try an organize some for you to try. Where abouts r u? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks for the offer, but 'no thanks'. don't worry, i AM a firm believer that cables can make a difference, and i do use 'expensive' cables (within reason). and i am currently very happy with my cables. but i don't think they make huge differences, that's all; nor am i so pedantic/fanatical that i wish to persue the 'perfect' cable for my setup. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> oh well. it was a good offer that most people would have taken up. maybe next time. not all the cables i use are 'expensive'. Good and 'expensive' dont always mean the same. But cheap and nasty always means the same good luck with your system
RodN Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 for speakers now days i generally dont toe.Toe in is great if you have a central seating position but if you have couches that are no central you probably wont get the proper sound dispertion. Cinemas dont toe in there speakers. Toe in generally works very good in stereo only applications come on and give me your ridicule im waiting for it and love it <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok I will bite on one point. Homes are not theatres. They cover much larger spaces and many assumptions one makes at home do not necessarily apply to such a large space that has to cater to such a large amount of people. In general I would agree to play to the largest audience, depending on who watches your system and when. I don't, its 99% of the time just me and one or two others so I can account for that with toe-in if necessary - and quite frankly if you're in the sweet spot it sounds better at least on my system. If you're running some sort of weird omnidirectional setup then I dunno. Just a point on rear toe-in, it all depends on the recording really. If you're running something like a Telarc or Chesky label then they set the rears up for a rear of seating position effect and toe-in might not help however if you play something like Sting or Clapton on sacd then they put whole instrument tracks through the rears for that 'in the middle of the band' feel in which toe-in might help.
RodN Posted October 28, 2004 Posted October 28, 2004 double post - I thought we used to be able to delete these things?
shiny_car Posted October 28, 2004 Author Posted October 28, 2004 double post - I thought we used to be able to delete these things? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> pfft, just add another reply with some other pearl of wisdom. i've read those links (which offer very good food for thought, thanks guys) and taken aboard the different approaches that have been discussed. i look forward to going home (i'm interstate yet again...) to try some different angles and stuff. and now i know what is recommended, so i can focus on those sorts of arrangements to see if it helps.
Recommended Posts