yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 I suppose this is a part-question, potential WTB and general seeking of advice. For context/background - I have a lovely system in my living room comprising of a Weston Acoustics Time Machine 300b, and a pair of custom two-way speakers built around Azura 340 Horns. In short, I am extremely happy with this set-up. Looks good, sounds good, awesome. (Thanks again, @atilsley) (A couple of early photos below. I've since added grills, lowered the horn stands, and changed to the 300b). Only issue I occasionally ponder; could it provide more "body", or "mass"....? This is a living-room, shared with all and sundry; kids, friends, animals. Endless doors opening and closing, people running through. Open kitchen, glass walls, staircases, skylights, hard floors, rugs. If you could think of the worst room imaginable for hifi, this is it. (I can always retreat to headphones somewhere when I want be submerged in good sound). Anyway, to get to the point! We have music on all the time, and it's rarely whilst sitting in a sweet-spot, (there is one on the couch). I find that while cooking, or walking around the room, the quite-directional horns can seem a little brittle. Would sourcing a good sub like a Real B1/2 help fill the room? Again, I think I'm asking from a general enjoyment point of view, not a audiophile one). Any insightful thoughts would be appreciated. 1
Happy Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Them subs always help achieving that full-bodied sound. It's physics. But of course a bit of help from DSP could be used.
Satanica Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 What you're really wanting is an improved frequency response, hey? If so a dedicated subwoofer might be part of the solution.
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 Thanks. I get the general gist of the physics and frequency parameters, but I'm certainly no expert. (I think I have the speaker's measurements somewhere, which I assume will tell if expanding the response is what's required). To be honest, when I sit in the sweet-spot, and finally get time to listen, I don't find the bass frequency isn't there, it just feels a little polite. Certainly not "room-filling". I'm trying to be respectful to the speakers, because I don't think it's their fault, just trying to make up for the assumed environmental shortcomings.
Happy Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 It would be a shame to have some eye-sore like a sub in that beautiful environment though. 1
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 Thanks. Yes, figured it would only fly if there was a nice timber-clad beast that could slot in there somewhere.
frankn Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Before you get to 'to have a sub' or 'not to have a sub' I suggest getting a recording of the room response to your set-up. Having a speaker response doesn't really tell you where potential highs/lows in the spectrum are. I hope I understood your comment of having the speaker measurement correctly (e.g. freq response) 1
cdave Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Have you tried moving the speakers? My setup originally sounded good in the sweet spot but very thin in the adjoining kitchen and dining areas. By moving the speakers and adding a little digital EQ bass, the sound filled out in the adjoining areas, and as a bonus, the sweet spot also improved.Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, cdave said: Have you tried moving the speakers? My setup originally sounded good in the sweet spot but very thin in the adjoining kitchen and dining areas. By moving the speakers and adding a little digital EQ bass, the sound filled out in the adjoining areas, and as a bonus, the sweet spot also improved. Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk Thanks, Dave. The speakers are on casters, and I do let them roam when I'm listening, within obvious reason. They're quite "beamy", so I do tend to point them when I know I'm going to be stationed in one part of the space.
Happy Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 get bigger horns mate no need to worry about them getting beamy 1
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, frankn said: Before you get to 'to have a sub' or 'not to have a sub' I suggest getting a recording of the room response to your set-up. Having a speaker response doesn't really tell you where potential highs/lows in the spectrum are. I hope I understood your comment of having the speaker measurement correctly (e.g. freq response) Thanks. In this case, does that help provide a solution, or just confirm what is known? I.e., would it tell me a sub would be a waste of time, or just confirm that I have a crappy room for sound in general?
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Happy said: get bigger horns mate no need to worry about them getting beamy Yep, considered adding some160s to the set up. My wife reminded me I was lucky two get that pair through the keeper, and not to push it... 1
Upfront Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Yep, considered adding some160s to the set up. My wife reminded me I was lucky two get that pair through the keeper, and not to push it... New wife may be in order? One a little more sympathetic to our affliction?[emoji12]
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 The crossovers were built on site, after measurements taken with the speakers in locale. See simulated response below when first tested on site. (We are getting out of my depth, but if it's helpful, then great).
frankn Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, yeahpetrus said: Thanks. In this case, does that help provide a solution, or just confirm what is known? I.e., would it tell me a sub would be a waste of time, or just confirm that I have a crappy room for sound in general? No, I think it may assist in your decision to know if a sub on its own will improve your listening pleasure. Measuring the room response will help in possibly identifying several, overlapping issues that may not be overcome by just adding a sub.
Happy Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 I feel the less body you're feeling is probably at the 250 region rather than the real bottom. The bottom can be filled-in too of course.
Upfront Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 I feel the less body you're feeling is probably at the 250 region rather than the real bottom. The bottom can be filled-in too of course. Its a big dip. Phase?
Happy Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Upfront said: Its a big dip. Phase? Will prolly need more info on how it was measured I think? Anyway, it's pretty clear a sub or two can surely help the actual bass bit. Not too sure if that really is what Dave feels insufficient about. 1
frankn Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 It would be best to re-run measurements if the crossover was built after these measurements, in several places and also to record where the microphone was placed in respect to the speakers, e..g at listening position Xmetres from speakers, also to both sides (from where you say the system sounds brittle). DSP will not correct dips in the freq response, it can help to flatten peaks somewhat. Correctly placed sub(s) can help where you have dips and also with the roll-off under 100Hz.
jamiebosco Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Wow! you weren't exaggerating about "looks good" !! One of the dual opposed 15" PSA XS30SE that are currently on special at deephz.com in American Cherry (or Satin Black if you want to save $250) http://www.deephzaudio.com/Power Sound XS30se product page.html could help fill in the bottom end
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 Many thanks, all. They are certainly a head-turner in the room. This is the current set-up.... 5
yeahpetrus Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 Many thanks @Happy @frankn I should learn to leave well-enough alone, as I do really think they're superb speakers. That said, they've settled in for almost a year now in the space, so I might get a new a new measurement done and see where it takes me. 1
andyr Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Interesting speakers - and those bass drivers seem to be pretty large? 15", right? As such, I would've thought they should deliver pretty good bass. I have a 15" driver in my 2 subs and they deliver plenty of bass! So if your bass drivers are 'reticent' ... maybe your amp isn't capable of providing the grunt they need? Which is a good reason to add a sub (or preferably 2) ... another amp delivers the really low bass notes and if you are rolling off your mains ... the main amp doesn't have to work as hard. But to do this requires active XOs. Andy
nzlowie Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Interesting thread, this is very much my question as well... do I add a sub to get some extra body or not. Mine to sometimes sounds a bit "thin." I've also got the Azura 340 horn but with a different bass setup. With my system I find it sounds really beautiful on vocals but not so good on rock music which needs that extra kick.One note about the big dip in the response around 200hz could be related to mic location, I always take readings at several locations around my chair and then average the responses. Makes a big difference to the measurements.Will keep following to see how you get on.Cheers Dave Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
yeahpetrus Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 Thanks, @nzlowie Yes, I need to be clear that the measurement above is just one, and done before the final x-over. I also don't know how it was conducted, (though I do remember saying to test/set it at my listening position, not directly from the speaker). My experience is the same; acoustics, vocals, etc., sound superb. Ethereal, clear, weightless in the room. More complex rock sounds a little thin, or maybe polite is a better decriptor. I suppose ultimately, that's what I'm asking, would beefing up the low end fill out that type of feeling? Maybe I should hunt down something to buy, or even borrow, to see what happens.
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