sloper Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 Goodaye all Need to run a12m speaker cable from amp to speaker. l have some Altronics http://www.altronics.com.au/p/w3000-ultra-low-loss-professional-grade-audio-cable/ and some RG 213u l seem to remember there's some capastence issues when using the altronics stuff for speakers, is that right??? Prefer to use this as have heaps. regards Bruce
pete_mac Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) The 213U may be OK, as it's about 2.5mm2 CSA from memory. The interconnect/signal cable is far, far too small (0.34mm2 CSA) - it's unsuitable for speaker cable. Signal only! I use 12AWG speaker speaker cable (3.3mm2 CSA) for a 15m run from the listening room to my outdoor speakers, and there's no appreciable loss of sonic quality when driving the speakers with one of my main amps. Go for large CSA (cross-sectional area) wire and you'll minimise losses. Edited June 5, 2017 by pete_mac
andyr Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, sloper said: Goodaye all Need to run a12m speaker cable from amp to speaker. l have some Altronics http://www.altronics.com.au/p/w3000-ultra-low-loss-professional-grade-audio-cable/ and some RG 213u l seem to remember there's some capacitance issues when using the altronics stuff for speakers, is that right??? Prefer to use this as have heaps. regards Bruce A 12m speaker cable run is extreme - speaker cables have capacitance & inductance ... the longer the cable is, the more of both you have! High capacitance can destroy your amplifier (or, at least - like with my Naim 250s - cause them to run hot ... and shut down when you play loud). Whereas high inductance degrades SQ. So for that length (I ran 11m speaker cables before switching over to 11m interconnects, instead), you need low inductance cables. Unfortunately, low inductance ... implies high capacitance. You need to ask @Zaphod Beeblebrox about the capacitance of RG213U (he likes this as a speaker cable) but I can assure you that using 2 jackets of Cat5 speaker cable to each speaker (1 jacket for '+ve' and 1 jacket for '-ve') produces a very good sound over 12m (I have some 15m runs to various ancillary speakers in my house). 39 minutes ago, pete_mac said: The 213U may be OK, as it's about 2.5mm2 CSA from memory. The interconnect/signal cable is far, far too small (0.34mm2 CSA) - it's unsuitable for speaker cable. Signal only! I use 12AWG speaker speaker cable (3.3mm2 CSA) for a 15m run from the listening room to my outdoor speakers, and there's no appreciable loss of sonic quality when driving the speakers with one of my main amps. Go for large CSA (cross-sectional area) wire and you'll minimise losses. Resistance is only 1 issue ... out of 3! I would suggest your 15m of 12awg cable is stranded? Replace this with 4x 15m of Cat5 cable to each speaker (so 2 jackets to '+ve' and 2 jackets to '-ve', to give you the same cross-sectional area - and hence resistance) and I suggest your SQ will increase. Andy 1
pete_mac Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 10 minutes ago, andyr said: Resistance is only 1 issue ... out of 3! I would suggest your 15m of 12awg cable is stranded? Replace this with 4x 15m of Cat5 cable to each speaker (so 2 jackets to '+ve' and 2 jackets to '-ve', to give you the same cross-sectional area - and hence resistance) and I suggest your SQ will increase. Andy You do raise a valid point or two there Andy... I was probably keeping it overly simple. I'm running outdoor speakers, and they sound surprisingly good as it is, so I'm in no hurry to get back up into that itchy roof cavity any time soon I do love my solid core cables though (every cable in my main rig features this type of construction). For Bruce, however, if the speakers are for critical listening purposes, I can definitely see the benefit in experimentation. Cat5 is so darn cheap too. 1
andyr Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, pete_mac said: I do love my solid core cables though (every cable in my main rig features this type of construction). My new BFF! (As are mine ... except for mains cables where they seem to be illegal, nowadays! ) Andy 1
pete_mac Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 Just now, andyr said: My new BFF! (As are mine ... except for mains cables where they seem to be illegal, nowadays! ) Andy Haha!! Other than the outdoor speakers and the figure 8 cable used with test speakers for refurbished or unknown amps, it's solid core all the way! I did have a solid core power cable a while back (with AXON branded cable... the same brand as the polyprop capacitors) and it was quite stiff, but a nice cable nonetheless! Thick-stranded silver plated copper in PTFE is my current power cable of choice.
sloper Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 Goodaye all l think most of the problem is left and right are run together giving signel interference. No spacing between the 2 cables. The figure 8 l use has a 1.85mm cross section and gives me no problems on he garage system running 15m down each side. l often think he garage system sounds perfect. Got a box of cat 5 at work. regards Bruce
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 11 hours ago, sloper said: Goodaye all Need to run a12m speaker cable from amp to speaker. l have some Altronics http://www.altronics.com.au/p/w3000-ultra-low-loss-professional-grade-audio-cable/ and some RG 213u l seem to remember there's some capastence issues when using the altronics stuff for speakers, is that right??? Prefer to use this as have heaps. regards Bruce The Altronics cable is a quite decent interconnect cable. RG213/U is a very different animal indeed. You COULD use it as interconnect, but I have no idea why you would. It's like working with cold garden hose. The Altronics cable is completely unsuitable for speaker cable, but the RG213/U is very suitable for use as speaker cable. Capacitance may be an issue, but usually only with Naim amplifiers. Most other amps will work just fine with RG213/U. Cat5/6 can be used as speaker cable, but I have no idea why you would want to waste many hours of your time terminating the stuff correctly, when RG213/U is so cheap, convenient, high performance and MUCH faster to terminate. Do the math. RG213/U is around $4.00/Metre. To equal RG213/U you would require 5 runs of Cat5. Each individual pair must be terminated to the + and - connections. It is a long and tedious job. More points: DO NOT use one run of RG213/U for + and another for -. Doing so will completely negate the advantages of RG213/U. Same deal for Cat5.
sloper Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 Thanks. Do you think its running the figure8 sided by side that is the real issue with the loss of clarity? regards Bruce
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, sloper said: Thanks. Do you think its running the figure8 sided by side that is the real issue with the loss of clarity? regards Bruce Figure 8 is the highest inductance cable available. Naim cables are the worst performers in this respect. High inductance WILL lead to a reduction in high frequency performance. It is important to note that high frequency loss is unrelated to alleged quality or price of the the cable. Only cables that are designed for low inductance (Goertz, RG213/U, Kimber, et al) are capable of delivering superior HF response. I should add that the HF impedance of the speakers is a very critical part of the equation. Speakers that exhibit a low(ish) impedance at HF will be very critical WRT cable inductance AND resistance. And again: Except for Naim amplification, cable capacitance is not relevant.
sloper Posted June 6, 2017 Author Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) Thank you Trevor. l'll move the amp and use the Altronic stuff to interconect. Just trying to use all the stuff l have sitting here. regards Bruce Ps just plugged in 15m of the Altronics stuff as interconnect to test. Edited June 6, 2017 by sloper yeha
soundbyte Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 I would suggest that you try a lot of different lower cost cables with large conductor size to start with. My system uses ordinary solid core power cable to good effect, whereas RG213/U was a waste of time as were various CAT 5/6 cables I constructed. These cables were all tried with many variations of speaker and amplifiers for my system. Not sure why, they were just was not as good as the power cable. I only use low cost cable as I do not have the deep pockets needed for some cables discussed on this site. Most/all systems are cable and listener sensitive, just need to look at the discussions this subject provokes. There is no one size fits all it seems.
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 50 minutes ago, soundbyte said: I would suggest that you try a lot of different lower cost cables with large conductor size to start with. My system uses ordinary solid core power cable to good effect, whereas RG213/U was a waste of time as were various CAT 5/6 cables I constructed. These cables were all tried with many variations of speaker and amplifiers for my system. Not sure why, they were just was not as good as the power cable. I only use low cost cable as I do not have the deep pockets needed for some cables discussed on this site. Most/all systems are cable and listener sensitive, just need to look at the discussions this subject provokes. There is no one size fits all it seems. Do you use 12 Metre speaker cables? My response was directly with that length in mind. Shorter speaker cable runs can use figure 8 successfully.
charlie_bird Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 I've read through this thread and found it to be an interesting discussion. My setup has long speaker cable runs (not sure exactly how long) using standard high quality heavy gauge figure 8 speaker wire. I've never had a problem with this on my many vintage speakers, but i recently purchased a pair of well regarded 'modern' speakers and haven't been happy with the HF performance of them. I will try some shorter cables or the coax mentioned above and see if that makes a difference! Should be interesting..
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, charlie_bird said: I've read through this thread and found it to be an interesting discussion. My setup has long speaker cable runs (not sure exactly how long) using standard high quality heavy gauge figure 8 speaker wire. I've never had a problem with this on my many vintage speakers, but i recently purchased a pair of well regarded 'modern' speakers and haven't been happy with the HF performance of them. I will try some shorter cables or the coax mentioned above and see if that makes a difference! Should be interesting.. What speakers and do you have the impedance curve. It is pretty easy to predict the response from the impedance curve.
joz Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: What speakers and do you have the impedance curve. It is pretty easy to predict the response from the impedance curve. That sounds interesting , how can you work it out?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, joz said: That sounds interesting , how can you work it out? We know the inductive reactance and resistance of the speaker cable (within reason, since all figure 8 cables exhibit similar inductance figures). That data allows us to calculate the loss introduced by the cable, relative to the speakers used. However, we MUST have a full, 20Hz ~ 20kHz impedance curve of the speaker. A single number is inadequate. This is what we use to calculate the result: http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/voltage-divider-calculator
charlie_bird Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 7 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: What speakers and do you have the impedance curve. It is pretty easy to predict the response from the impedance curve. I checked the manufacture's website and didn't any info on the impedance curve. I'll just try some shorter wires and see if I can hear a difference
sloper Posted June 11, 2017 Author Posted June 11, 2017 Goodaye all Ran the W3000 under the house to the Sansui AU101 amp today and it sounds great. Only thing is l had to use two signal boxes, one from the DAC and one to select speakers. The heathens in the house have been told never to touch it. The difference between between my Marantz and Sansui systems is noticeable but both are pleasent but l do prefer the Marantz. Thanks for all you input, back to renovations now. regards Bruce
charlie_bird Posted July 15, 2017 Posted July 15, 2017 On 6/7/2017 at 6:43 PM, charlie_bird said: I checked the manufacture's website and didn't any info on the impedance curve. I'll just try some shorter wires and see if I can hear a difference @Zaphod Beeblebrox I had a go this afternoon and short figure 8 cables made a considerable sound quality difference. My speaker cable run is just shy of 11 meters. I'd like to give the RG 213 coax a go. This is the stuff here? http://rfsolutions.com.au/ham-radio-products/manufacturer/messi-paolini/rg-213-u-coaxial-cable/ Would a person solder some 'pig tails' to one or both conductors to ease termination?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted July 15, 2017 Posted July 15, 2017 2 hours ago, charlie_bird said: @Zaphod Beeblebrox I had a go this afternoon and short figure 8 cables made a considerable sound quality difference. My speaker cable run is just shy of 11 meters. I'd like to give the RG 213 coax a go. This is the stuff here? http://rfsolutions.com.au/ham-radio-products/manufacturer/messi-paolini/rg-213-u-coaxial-cable/ Would a person solder some 'pig tails' to one or both conductors to ease termination? Yep and yep. You should find a substantial improvement over figure 8 type cables.
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