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matrix test in syd (I guess)


terry j
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OK, done a lot of talking, nows the time to see if there's gonna be some walking.

I say matrix, don't feel we need to go into the benefits and disadvantages again do we?

Others may say more traditional dbt. First off, guess we'd better decide which (if any) we'll be doing.

Factors to consider, degree of difficulty in setting it up, usefulness of any results gained, how many is a good number etc etc.

Quick show of hands on which we do??? don't want to waste too much time on 'voting', I've expressed my wish, what is yours?

may as well be after april I guess, at least earle may be able to make it...why not eh!!;)

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oh, thought he said april. I dion't give a toss one way or the other, anyway what is happening in feb?

drizt, I don't subscribe to ' I started it therefore I control it' when it comes to threads. so all van say what they want, just don't think it;s worth spending a lot of time on thrashing out this question. Once we decide what to do we have to organise it well enough that whatever result we get is robust enough to be worth something.

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OK Locked in then................Matrix Tests on the weekend of 14/15 February. Lock it in your calendars boys.

Terry, saturday for setup, calibration, trial run, etc.....Sunday for some serious Eval?

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all right, do you think that is long enough to organise?

next step, organise what exactly. I guess when I said matrix test perhaps it suggested 'expensive front end vs cheap front end', tho at the time I was not really suggesting anything concrete. Anyway, is that what we seem to have decided upon?

I'm fine on that.

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all right, do you think that is long enough to organise?

next step, organise what exactly. I guess when I said matrix test perhaps it suggested 'expensive front end vs cheap front end', tho at the time I was not really suggesting anything concrete. Anyway, is that what we seem to have decided upon?

I'm fine on that.

Hi Mate, I have two significantly differently priced and configured front ends lined up, and am working on level matching at the moment.

We can sort the nuts and bolts out over Christmas and I will go through the Matrix thingy with you (haven't had time to research).

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It will be good to see this get done, well done guys.

Id suggest using a stuff that a lot of people use. An SB3 / Duet or cheap CDP or DVD player would be great (we'll have to make sure its setup right, no digital volume control etc.) and Andrews $10k CDP. Level matching is the really hard part, ill look forward to how you guys get it accurate enough.

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Level matching is the really hard part, i'll look forward to how you guys get it accurate enough.

Firstly I volunteer my services, but Drizt's comment raises an excellent concern that definitely needs resolution. Stepped attenuators perhaps.

I could bring mine but it is transformer based and likely to provoke claims of influence on the signal. :confused:

Of course we could test this first on saturday vs resistor based and even trimpots....?? (ZB? claimed once that a good trimpot is all you need for a volume control !!) This is a valid DBT test in itself. If the results proved him right then the level matching problem is solved. :)

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will wait till I speak to andrew, find out what he has in mind.

few prelim thoughts for now.

numbers, seem very low right now, that is fine on a couple of fronts (easy fun gtg, everyone gets a chance to listen etc) but makes any 'findings' less robust. so on the whole, more would be better I think.

speakers chosen for the test. would ave to be agreed that they were of 'sufficient' quality that they would not obscure any differences present. That is grounds for another argument of course (it would tend to negate the old argument that source is the most important in the old speaker/source debate, if we accept a certain standard of speaker is reqd to deliver front end differences) but it would uneccesarily obscure this test.

I can supply the el cheapo front end stuff, just whip it out of mine for a weekend. But we should be asking for donations for the other stuff like (for example) high end power cords, ICs etc.

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may as well set the question it seems we are looking at, a comparison of an expensive front end (anything before the speakers) and a cheap front end, with a pair of speakers common to both, ie all that is done is swap speaker cables from each front end.

Unfortunately for the moment the original article these quotes came from cannot be found, but luckily I did do a copy of a few small portions that should 'set the scene'.

From earle geddes, discussing the area of electronics in hi fi.

I am not saying that there are no audible differences in amplifiers, cables or what ever; I really don’t care either way. You see, to me, there are three things in audio playback that make up 95-99% of the experience; the speakers, the room, and the speaker to room interface.

Everything else falls into the “negligible” category; audible by some - probably; statistically significant across a large population - I doubt it. So go ahead and argue about the audibility of cables or what-not, I’m really not interested. It’s so hard to get that crucial 95% right that I don’t have the time, and especially the money, to worry much about the other 5%.

and

One thing that did get a lot of attention at our room was the fact that the front-end electronics on our speakers had a total cost of about $220.00 (Toshiba CD player, $50 @ Costco; Pioneer receiver Amps, $150 @ Costco; RCA cables, $20 at Home Depot). Some people could not believe the sound that was achieved with such low cost components while others listened intently until they became convinced that they could hear the poor quality in the electronics. I really have to admire those privileged few who could hear the difference between $220 of electronics and thousands of dollars of electronics. These people have the advantage of be able to spend all that extra money admiring something that most others can’t even perceive. That’s a rare and privileged group.

Now, it just happens that these sentiments very closely resemble mine, your view could very well be the complete opposite.

That is what we are going to have a fun day having a look at.

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Hello Terry

Earl Geddes has the same veiw towards digital xovers so in the future would there be a test between say DEQX & Behringer or a well designed passive .

Another blind test Geddes has done is between driver manufactures also cabinet construction which would make for a interesting test .You could test your concrete cab's against old franks timber cab's .

Cheers.

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Hello Terry

Earl Geddes has the same veiw towards digital xovers so in the future would there be a test between say DEQX & Behringer or a well designed passive .

Another blind test Geddes has done is between driver manufactures also cabinet construction which would make for a interesting test .You could test your concrete cab's against old franks timber cab's .

Cheers.

They would make for great tests to read about.

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i just hope its not just those that believe there are no differences in anything but speakers that turn up to this.

its just too easy to say i heard no difference

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i just hope its not just those that believe there are no differences in anything but speakers that turn up to this.

its just too easy to say i heard no difference

True if one wanted to be dishonest. Which we would hope would not be the case. In any case, as long as people don't try and use a negative result as ultimate proof then we should be fine. All we need is some positive results to start talking about what actually made a difference.

Perhaps those that do believe should put their hands up to attend.

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i just hope its not just those that believe there are no differences in anything but speakers that turn up to this.

its just too easy to say i heard no difference

you're more than welcome to come and participate John!

No, a matrix test. "which do you prefer??" That will prevent all of us lying and cheating and totally untrustworthy objectivists simply saying 'I hear no difference".

And as we do not know which is which, then the answers to the question 'which one do you prefer' will be illuminating. And don't get it wrong, until it's done we cannot assume we will get anything like the results of the matrix test. For all we know, it could be the complete opposite.

All because of the rigorousness imposed by the trivial requirement that we do not know which front end we are hearing.

simple really, could never understand the fuss. well,that's not totally true, the fuss only ever ariseswhen a result other than we 'wish' occurs, and we are unable to accept it.

Earles comments are no longer available, but he has offered to make them available to me if I e-mail him,dunno whether he'd agree to them being posted here tho. Or even if it's needed, think the little I quoted has set the scene adequately.

Hello Terry

Earl Geddes has the same veiw towards digital xovers so in the future would there be a test between say DEQX & Behringer or a well designed passive .

Another blind test Geddes has done is between driver manufactures also cabinet construction which would make for a interesting test .You could test your concrete cab's against old franks timber cab's .

Hi 56, has earle actually done blind tests somwhere?? If so, I'd love to see them if you have links.

I have not seen any comment from earle regarding digital crossovers, unless they're buried in some bloody long waveguide thread over there!!! But he IS very much in the not spending much money camp, and as such he is quite against active setups for that very reason.

Would very much love to participate in a blind test of deqx vs well designed passive, thank you for bringing it up as TBH it would have been very uncool for ME to suggest it!! How much do I owe you? Yeah, that is EXACTLY the type of demo that convinces those who know nothing about the power of the deqx the, well, power of the deqx heh heh.

So bring it on with my blessings m'k?

Bit hard to do the old cabs vs the new, bit of a lag between auditions!

Edited by terry j
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Drizt, exactly, hopefully people are honest enough to say they heard a difference if they did.

Terry, i would gladly participate in one at my own place, as i have done on many occasions before.

I prefer to do it on a system i know very well.

There have been times i was able to pick 100% of the time in a blind test, other times, had no hope which resulted it no sales.

Your matrix test i have no problem with as its all personal taste.

Again though, hopefully with people knowing there will be a $50 front end, vs a big $$$ front end doesn't deter them from stating their opinion, rather then just saying i heard no difference in fear they may actually enjoy the cheaper front end

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Bit hard to do the old cabs vs the new, bit of a lag between auditions!

Lag time ,this is where audio memory comes into play and it can come into play during blind test's as well I guess .

You will need to dig deep in some diyaudio thread to find some things you know how long some of their threads go for :D .

Cheers

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Re Earl's comments on the 5% contribution to quality that 'system minus speakers' makes. I agree with him in terms of med-fi and musicality etc, but with hi-fi, the little things that "others may not perceive" (they don't know what they should be listening for) become glaringly obvious to me eg a slight tizziness in the top end, a hole near a xover pt or whatever. You point it out to friends and they go "Oh, yeah". With med-fi it's all 'good enough'.

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