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Stacked Layer Plinth, What Glue To Use?


Sierra
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I'm going to build a stacked layer plinth for my Technics SP10 Mk2 Turntable.

 

I'll be using a combination of Jarrah and Aluminium in alternating layers.

 

Dimensions will be 500mm deep by 550mm wide by aprox 125mm thick.

 

Material used will be Jarrah planks 125mm wide x 38mm thick.

Four lengths of 580mm plank will be biscuit joined side by side to give the layer 500mm depth.

Three of these layers will then be made up.

 

Sandwiched between these 3 layers of Jarrah will be two layers of 5mm Aluminium sheeting.

 

So my question is ... what would be the most appropriate type of glue/bonding agent for gluing the Aluminium to the Jarrah?

 

My thoughts would be to use a construction adhesive like Liquid Nails.

I have used liquid nails before in car audio applications where I've had to glue bits of timber to metal work.

In that application the bond was extremely strong with the timber piece breaking before the glue joint.

 

Would the Aluminium bond as well to the timber as sheet metal does?

 

What are other peoples experiences or thoughts?

Are there specific glues for bonding Aluminium to timber?

 

@@shaky ... Thank you for your help today in helping select the best Jarrah planks  :)

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Would the Aluminium bond as well to the timber as sheet metal does?

 

 

 

 

No. Ferrous metals bond easier than non-ferrous metals when using a composite such as what you are doing so a different product is needed IMO and experience...

 

Here is a link to a companies products I have used with excellent results when doing both Car body repairs and plinth projects...http://www.lord.com/

 

Products are available here in Aus but are for professional use only, however using common sense  :unsure:  :unsure:  you should have no problems..

 

Good Luck Tase.

 

The 110 I have used.....more detail..http://www.lord.com/products-and-solutions/brands/fusor---aftermarket-repair-adhesives/fusor-weld-bonding-products

Edited by Tasebass
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Just use a thin layer of contact cement, like kwik grip.

 

Liquid nails is too thick and maybe counter productive, trying to get even consistency, also goes hard over time and may change sonic characteristics.

 

Last one I built I used three layers of hard wood with a thin layer of balsa wood adhered (PVA)to each layer of  HW. Then I bolted (using 3 bolts) right through the three layers and compressed the balsa together, no glue between the balsa.

 

Compressed the balsa very tightly for a couple of months then I've been slacking off the bolts a slight bit to tune the plinth. Object is the the Balsa has very good adhesion (glue soaks into the grain) and the the 2 sheets of balsa can disapate energy by friction between the 2 surfaces.

 

Used inserted nuts on the bottom layer, large flat bolt head on the top layer, middle layer just gets compressed. End of the bolts are sharpened to a spike for direct coupling.........does it work maybe, still experimenting.

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Thermals and humidity plays a part too....especially here in Aus.

 

Composites will expand and contract at different rates regarding temperature so the right product for the job is essential for long term satisfaction...Aluminium in particular...

 

Tase. 

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@@shaky ... Thank you for your help today in helping select the best Jarrah planks  :)

Welcome any time mate. Some great advice here already. Nice going guys.

This is going to end up a cracker of a plinth in @@Sierra s hands judging by his previous speaker project. One to watch.

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Just use a thin layer of contact cement, like kwik grip.

 

 

I would not have though that kwik grip would have the strength for bonding to Aluminium.

 

 

Thermals and humidity plays a part too....especially here in Aus.

 

Composites will expand and contract at different rates regarding temperature so the right product for the job is essential for long term satisfaction...Aluminium in particular...

 

Tase. 

 

Exactly ... different expansion rates of the materials could be a problem ... time will tell I guess if it all tears itself apart a couple of years down the track ...

 

Would it be beneficial to bead/sand blast the shiny Aluminiun surface to promote better adhesion?

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i would probably use titebond polyurethane or possibly contact adhesive i definitely swear by titebond 2 and 3 for laminating timber together but haven't really glued ally in that sort of situation, good luck 

 

tommy

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Ever tried getting the contact off of the bloody putty knife :emot-bang:

 

Would depend on what your trying to do. If you want to isolate one surface from another, then thick contact would be an advantage, if you want to transfer energy, then thin would be better. Better the adhesion properties the better. I only suggested Kwik cause it is thin and adheres well, there's probably better glues.

 

Temperature and humidity is less of an issue, unless you plan on operating out doors, maybe if you lived in a cold wet climate like Tasmania?

 

I cant fully understand how energy would transfer from wood to aluminum very well. Maybe if they were better interlocked, dove tail or something. Any how lots of people swear by it and aluminum would add a bit more rigidity (rigidity between spindle and tonearm) , which is always good. Just giving a different perspective.

 

Look forwards to seeing what you come up with, should look great.

Edited by awty
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Glue is always a bugger to get off anything that wasn't supposed to be glued .. :P

 

With the temp and humidity more concerned about the Jarrah "moving" as in bending (cupping) or splitting and lifting off the Aluminium.

 

As you say ... a lot of people swear by Aluminium stacking ... so we'll give it a crack  :)

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@@Sierra    

 

Here are some images of the Sondek plinths I fabricated/modified in August 2013 that might be of some help to you....

 

post-109454-0-07265200-1460803527_thumb.  

post-109454-0-04502500-1460803529_thumb.

 

 Here I am prep the Khan top plate ready for bonding to the modified plinth using an angle grinder with a p36 grade pad to remove the anodize coating and key the aluminium...

 

 

 

post-109454-0-89633800-1460803527_thumb.  

                                                

 I made sure the Khan and the modified plinth mated perfectly....this actually took some time to do but had to be done otherwise the completed plinth would have been next to useless

 

 

 

post-109454-0-80767300-1460803529_thumb.  

post-109454-0-69802200-1460803530_thumb.

 

 Once the prep was complete including making sure everything was clean and dry!! I applied the Fusor 110 adhesive...

 

post-109454-0-52176500-1460803531_thumb.post-109454-0-32431100-1460803532_thumb.

post-109454-0-99661900-1460803532_thumb.

 

When the Fusor had fully cured I went into the filling and painting stages....

I didn't rush this process either, letting the adhesives and substrates cure and dry fully before moving onto the next phase (s).....

 

 

 

 

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post-109454-0-18113100-1460805010_thumb.

 

Above is an image of the steel "chassis" I fabricated and the attention to detail needed.....

 

 

post-109454-0-92606300-1460805013_thumb.

 

As the weather warmed and still in the testing stages I kept checking for thermal movement for weeks on end.....this is the second plinth outside in the Sun for some severe testing.....

 

 

post-109454-0-94884400-1460805012_thumb.

 

This image I shot tonight nearly 3 years after initial fabrication...no movement..no sinkbacks...no shrinkage...

 

Looks exactly the same as the day the final finish went on..... :)

 

 

Hope this helps Tase.

Edited by Tasebass
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There's a two part epoxy at Bunnings for woodworking.

It pretty much bonds anything to anything.

 

 

Sorry.............I don't think Bunnings have it.

I last got it at Mitre 10 but I can't seem to find it on their website.

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Way back in the seventies we used spray on contact cement for all manner of projects

It was standard to use this method to bond vinyl to car roofs

Contact cement will bond just about anything to something else

You can now also get it in gel form

But for a neat, evenly distributed and superior finish, I haven't seen a better result that the spray method

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I used sika-flex to good effect before. Get the right one for the job and it will stay stuck.

 

http://aus.sika.com/en/elastic-bonding-redirect/sika-elastic-bonding-solutions.html

 

I was just looking at the Sika website just before ... and this Sikabond high strength contact adhesive looks like it could fit the brief as wood and Aluminium are two of the materials listed that it's suitable for.

Sika_BOND - 452.pdf

 

 

 

 

attachicon.gifK detail.JPG

 

Above is an image of the steel "chassis" I fabricated and the attention to detail needed.....

 

 

attachicon.gifK test temp.JPG

 

As the weather warmed and still in the testing stages I kept checking for thermal movement for weeks on end.....this is the second plinth outside in the Sun for some severe testing.....

 

 

attachicon.gifK plinth.JPG

 

This image I shoot tonight nearly 3 years after initial fabrication...no movement..no sinkbacks...no shrinkage...

 

Looks exactly the same as the day the final finish went on..... :)

 

 

Hope this helps Tase.

 

That plinth looks magnificent Tase ... brilliant work mate! 

Thanks for posting the photos ... a picture is worth a thousand words

 

There is obviously no movement or cracking with that Fusor 110.

 

Is it hard to get?

 

 

 

Sorry.............I don't think Bunnings have it.

I last got it at Mitre 10 but I can't seem to find it on their website.

 

Always the way ... can't find something when you want it  :)

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attachicon.gifK detail.JPG

 

Above is an image of the steel "chassis" I fabricated and the attention to detail needed.....

 

 

attachicon.gifK test temp.JPG

 

As the weather warmed and still in the testing stages I kept checking for thermal movement for weeks on end.....this is the second plinth outside in the Sun for some severe testing.....

 

 

attachicon.gifK plinth.JPG

 

This image I shot tonight nearly 3 years after initial fabrication...no movement..no sinkbacks...no shrinkage...

 

Looks exactly the same as the day the final finish went on..... :)

 

 

Hope this helps Tase.

Wow

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Interesting topic, I have been designing a plinth in my mind and this has been something I have wondered about.

 

One thing I have considered is that aluminum has different thermal properties to wood, so would be expanding/contracting slightly differently.  I would have thought a flexible glue would be appropriate so it moves with the materials.  I was thinking KwickGrip (or could Weldbond be a possibility?).  A rigid glue like liquid nails would be more likely to break. 

 

Going slightly off-topic but still relating to a layered plinth with an aluminum layer, I was thinking that using a dampening material (like Dynamat) in the layers might contribute to a good plinth.  It has a thin aluminum layer with butyl rubber.  I have not read this being tried before.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

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Interesting topic, I have been designing a plinth in my mind and this has been something I have wondered about.

Then you might find the answers to your questions here as well ...

 

One thing I have considered is that aluminum has different thermal properties to wood, so would be expanding/contracting slightly differently.  I would have thought a flexible glue would be appropriate so it moves with the materials.  I was thinking KwickGrip (or could Weldbond be a possibility?).  A rigid glue like liquid nails would be more likely to break.

This will be the decision to make ... between a bonding agent that allows a bit of flexing and one that is rigid.

Both types would need to be able to bond strongly to Aluminium.

 

Going slightly off-topic but still relating to a layered plinth with an aluminum layer, I was thinking that using a dampening material (like Dynamat) in the layers might contribute to a good plinth.  It has a thin aluminum layer with butyl rubber.  I have not read this being tried before.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

There is a reason why you have not read it been done before ... because it is not an appropriate use of Dynamat (or Stinger Roadkill etc, etc)

Dynamat is used as a panel deadener for automotive use to stop panel work in cars from resonating ... mainly in car audio applications.

It's designed as a mass damper to stop ringing/resonating.

A plinth of this type will not resonate ... try tapping your finger on a red gum stump or a block of wood of similar thickness ... it will not ring ... so in this instance Dynamat will be of no help.

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...There is a reason why you have not read it been done before ... because it is not an appropriate use of Dynamat (or Stinger Roadkill etc, etc)

Dynamat is used as a panel deadener for automotive use to stop panel work in cars from resonating ... mainly in car audio applications.

It's designed as a mass damper to stop ringing/resonating....

 

Thanks, I'm aware of the normal use of Dynamat.  My thinking for using in a plinth is the same as the OP's use of Aluminium - various materials dissipate and absorb different energies (forgive me if I don't use the correct terminology).  Dynamat includes a thin aluminum layer, which should do no harm.  The rubber layer would absorb the energy so less energy will be transferred to other layers, so unwanted energy is removed. It would be a new approach to building plinths.

Edited by audiofeline
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